mmsi 

BALTIMORE,  : 


MARYLAND 


'.juuul.uti 


DEBATE, 

BEFORE  THE  COMMON  COUNCIL 


ON 


THE  CATHOLIC  PETITION, 

RESPECTING   THE   COMMON   SCHOOL  FUND; 


AND 


THE  PUBLIC  SCHOOL  SYSTEM  OF  EDUCATION, 

»  IN 

THE  CITY  OF  NEW-YORK. 


CONTENTS. 

I.  IN  SUPPORT  OF  THE  CATHOLIC  PETITION. 
Speech  of  the  Right  Rev.  Dr.  Hughes,.Catholic  Bishop. 

II.  AGAINST  GRANTING  THE  PRAYER  OF  THE  PETITION. 
"  Theodore  Sedgwick,  and  Hiram  Ketchum,  Esq's., 

Counsel  for  the  Public  School  Society. 
"  Rev.  Dr.  Bond,  Rev.  Dr.  Baitgs,  and  Dr.  Reese, 

Of  the  Methodist  Episcopal  Church. 
Rev.  Dr.  Knox,  of  the  Dutch  Reformed  Church., 
Rev.  Dr.  Spring,  of  the  Presbtterian  Church. 

III.  IN  REPLY. 

"  Right  Rev.  Dr.  Hughes. 


Ex  iCtbrifi 


SEYMOUR  DURST 


When  you  leave,  please  leave  this  book 

Because  it  has  been  said 
"Ever'thing  comes  t'  him  who  watts 

Except  a  loaned  book." 


Avery  Architectural  and  Fine  Arts  Library 
Gift  of  Seymour  B.  Di  rst  Old  York  Library 


INTRODUCTION. 


On  presenting  to  the  public  a  report  of  the  late  important 
discussion  before  the  Common  Council  of  the  city  of  New 
York,  on  the  subject  of  popular  education,  and  the  Petition 
of  the  Catholics  for  an  alteration  in  the  present  mode  of  ad- 
ministering the  school  fund  in  this  city,  it  will  nut  be  con- 
sidered inappropriate  to  accompany  it,  by  way  of  preface, 
with  a  brief  narrative  of  the  agitation  of  the  question  here 
during  the  present  year.  The  following  statement  is  ac- 
cordingly given  of  the  proceedings  on  the  subject. 

There  will  be  found  in  the  debate  information  respecting 
the  Common  School  Systc  its  origin  and  its  operation 
throughout  this  State,  sufficient  for  all  general  purposes. — 
A  more  detailed  reference  to  that  portion  of  the  subject  will 
therefore  be  unnecessary  here.  With  Catholics  and  with 
the  Catholic  Church,  the  education  of  youth  has  ever  been 
an  object  of  peculiar  solicitude,  as  the  vast  means  will  tes- 
tify, which  this  Church  (let  her  enemies  say  what  they  will) 
has  always  provided  for  popular  instruction,  through  the 
agency  of  her  religious  orders  and  otherwise.  But  in  all 
cases  it  has  been  one  of  their  most  anxious  cares  that  the 
instruction  imparted  should  not  only  not  impair  religious 
faith,  which  is  the  basis  of  all  moral  good,  but  should 
strengthen  and  confirm  it  in  the  minds  of  those  upon  whom 
the  benefits  of  education  were  conferred.  In  the  early  and 
middle  ages,  this  task  of  education  was  discharged  through- 
out Christendom  almost  exclusively  by  ecclesiastics  or  reli- 
gious persons  who  maintained  numerous  schools  in  which 
instruction  was  free  to  all  who  sought  it.  Men  were  then 
not  divided  as  they  are  now  in  their  religious  belief.  But 
with  the  conflict  of  creeds,  came  an  altered  state  of  things 
wherever  it  prevailed.  The  religious  spirit,  which,  in  Ca- 
tholic times,  led  men  and  associations  of  men,  voluntarily 
and  without  hope  of  earthly  reward,  to  devote  their  lives  and 
their  faculties  to  a  compliance  with  the  counsel  of  mercy, 
that  declared  it  to  be  a  divine  virtue  "to  instruct  the  igno- 
rant," had  in  a  great  measure  disappeared,  and  nothing 
equivalent  had  arisen  in  its  place.  After  a  time,  however, 
various  governments  attempted  the  establishment  of  general 
national  systems  of  education,  and  in  those  countries 
where  an  equality  of  rights  was  secured  in  any  considerable 
degree,  to  the  several  religious  denominations,  much  diffi- 
culty was  and  is  yet  experienced  in  contriving  a  sy  tern 
that  would  be  acceptable  to  all  alike.  It  is  not  necessary 
here  to  refer  to  the  various  plans  that  nave  been  agitated  or 
adopted  in  other  places.  The  history  of  the  subject  in  this 
State  is  the  only  one  which  it  will  be  necessary  to  glance  at. 
Here  the  system  (by  what  means  it  matters  not  at  present 
to  inquire)  gradually  assumed  a  form  under  the  manage- 
ment of  the  Public  School  Society  of  the  city  of  New  York, 
which  it  is  believed  education  has  not  assumed  in  any  other 
country — a  form  of  which  religion  not  only  constitutes  no 
part,  but  in  which  it  is  avowedly  excluded.  To  such  a  sys- 
tem Catholics  could  never  give  their  confidence — and  what 
rendered  it  still  more  objectionable  with  them,  was  the  fact 
that  it  had  a  strong  anti-Catholic  tendency,  especially  in  the 
character  of  the  books  that  were  used  for  school  exercises^ 
The  Catholics  generally  declined  to  participate  in  what  they 
considered  to  be,  at  the  best,  the  very  dubious  benefits  of 
this  system.  They  complained  of  the  unjust  administration 
of  the  public  fund  by  which  this  system  was  supported — a 


fund  to  which  they,  in  common  with  others,  nad  >. 
ed ;  and  in  order  to  supply  the  wants  of  their  own  ^ 
far  as  they  had  the  means  to  do  so,  they  established  . 
schools  subject  to  their  own  control. 

More  particular  attention  having  been  recently  called  to 
the  subject,  some  action  on  the  part  of  the  Catholics  was 
deemed  necessary,  and  a  Catholic  Association  was  formed  in 
this  city  in  the  early  part  of  the  present  year,  for  the  purpose 
of  obtaining  a  remedy,  if  practicable,  for  the  grievance  un- 
der which  the  Catholics  labored  in  this  matter.  "Weekly 
meetings  were  held  for  several  months  in  the  school  house 
attached  to  the  Cathedral  Church — political  views  and  feel- 
ings were  most  sedulously  excluded  from  all  their  proceed- 
ings— men  of  all  political  parties  participated  in  the  move- 
ment— memorials  were  presented  to  the  Common  Council 
of  the  city  of  New  Yor  k  for  relief,  their  prayer  was  de- 
nied, and  the  subject  had  thus  acquired  a  considerable 
public  interest  previous  to  the  meeting  of  the  Association 
and  of  the  general  body  of  the  Catholics,  which  was  held  on 
the  evening  of  the  20th  of  July  last,  in  the  school  house 
above  mentioned,  immediately  after  the  retur  n  of  the  Right 
Rev.  Dr.  Hughes  from  Europe. 

At  this  meeting  the  very  Rev.  Dr.  Power  presided,  and 
it  was  ably  and  eloquently  addressed  by  him  and  by  the  Rt. 
Rev.  Dr.  Hughes,  and  also  by  other  gentlemen.  The 
meetings  from  that  time  forward  were  regularly  held  once 
in  two  weeks  in  the  basement  room  of  St.  James'  Church, 
and  assumed  a  most  important  character.  Bishop  Hughes 
delivered  on  every  evening  an  eloquent  and  instructive  ad- 
dress on  the  subject.  The  very  Rev.  Dr.  Power  also  fre- 
quently addressed  the  meetings  in  his  powerful  and  impres- 
sive manner,  and  occasional  speeches  were  likewi.-e  made 
by  several  Catholic  gentlemen  who  took  a  warm  interest  in 
the  proceedings. 

On  the  ICth  of  August,  an  "Address  of  the  Roman  Ca- 
tholics to  their  fellow-citizens  of  the  City  and  State  of  New 
York"  was  adopted  by  the  meeting  of  Catholics  held  on  that 
day,  and  it  was  published  in  pamphlet  form,  and  also  in  an 
extra  issued  from  the  office  of  the  New  York  Freeman's 
Journal,  and  some  other  papers  of  the  city.  The  Address 
excited  much  attention,  and  a  document,  purporting  to  be  a 
"  Reply"  to  its  arguments,  was  issued  by  the  Public  School 
Society. 

On  the  21st  of  September,  a  petition  to  the  Common 
Council  of  the  city  of  New  York,  for  relief,  was  adopted  at 
the  Catholic  meeting  held  on  that  day  in  the  basement  of 
St.  James'  Church,  and  was  forthwith  presented  by  a  com- 
mittee, deputed  for  the  purpose,  to  the  Board  of  Aldermen 
who  were  then  in  session.  A  copy  of  the  petition  is  an- 
nexed to  this  introduction. 

After  some  discussion  and  postponements,  the  29th  of 
October  was  finally  appointed  by  the  Board  of  Aldermen  to 
hear  the  Catholics  and  those  opposed  to  them,  by  counsel  or 
etherwisc,  on  the  subject  of  their  petition — the  Public  School 
Society  and  the  Methodist  Episcopal  Church  having  sent  in 
to  the  Common  Council  remonstrances  against  granting 
the  prayer  of  the  Catholic  petition.  On  that  day  and  the 
succeeding  one  the  debate  took  place,  of  which  the  present 
publication  furnishes  a  faithful  report.  \ 


,  several  Catholic  meetings  on  this 

jf  the  20th  of  July  incltnuve,  w*re 
ally  and  accurately  repotted  in  the  New 
Journal,  and  the  following  interesting  e&> 
speech  of  Bishop  Hughes  at  the  last  meeting, 
ueld  on  the  subject,  on  the  19th  of  October  last, 
.  from  that  Journal  of  the  24th  of  the  same  month, 
given  here  as  being  particularly  appropriate  and  in- 
.ucti\  (  . 

Speaking  of  the  introduction  into  the  Public  Schools  of 
the  works  of  Protestant  writers  exclusively,  the  Bishop 
asked, 

"What  reason  they  (the  Trustees  of  the  Public  Schools)  had  to  give 
for  the  introduction  of  these  writers — Robertson,  Hume  and  others — 
■what  reason  they  could  have,  when  they  knew  there  were  6iich  a 
multitude  of  Catholic  writers,  to  suppress  even  the  least  occasional 
mention  of  Catholic  writers  ?  Was  it  because  Catholics  have  no  men 
who  have  labored  in  the  fields  of  science  to  improve  the  human  mind  ? 
Now,  though  it  may  be  a  secret  to  those  gentlemen,  there  is  no  de- 
partment ot  History  or  Philosophy  in  which  the  mind  of  a  Catholic 
has  not  taken  the  lead  ;  and  the  time  was,  when  the  Catholic  arm 
was  found  the  strongest  in  pushing  the  Sun  ot  Science  up  the 
Heavens.  Who  has  produced  works  of  Theology  like  ours.  In 
Philosophy,  whether  of  mind  or  mailer,  where  arc  the  books  which 
for  depth  of  research,  or  extent  of  knowledge,  equal  or  approach  the 
mighty  tomes  produced  by  Catholics  ?  And  at  the  period  when  an- 
cient civilization  was  destroyed,  when  the  edifice  crumbled  under  the 
mighty  stroke  of  the  Goth  and  the  Hun,  and  when  society  was  dis- 
solved, we  found  Catholic  minds  presiding  over  its  reconstruction, 
laying  its  foundations  broad  and  deep,  and  doing  every  thing  calcu- 
lated to  improve  the  public  mind.  Who  reduced  a  mass  of  rude  cha- 
racters into  letters  which  we  now  call  our  alphabet  ?  Who  but  Ca- 
tholics who  thus  gave  a  language  to  Europe  by  establishing  its  basis. 
Nay  more,  after  that,  who  introduced  that  most  important  branch  of 
civilization — agriculture  ?  It  was  the  Monks,  by  whose  industry 
and  labor  the  reclaimed  wastes  became  the  "  model  farms"  of  Europe, 
and  from  them  agriculture  spread. 

We  hear  much  of  free  government  and  of  Parliaments,  but  was  that 
a  Protestant  invention  ?  No,  it  was  a  Catholic  invention  ;  for  it  was 
copied  from  the  Catholic  Church.  The  first  models  of  representative 
government,  and  of  dignified  and  noble  parliaments,  were  the  coun- 
cils of  the  Catholic  Church,  in  which  every  part  of  that  church  had 
its  representative.  Thence,  then  the  idea  was  borrowed,  which  has 
been  the  pride  and  boast  of  Engiand  and  of  this  country  after  her,  of 
representative  government.  But  I  might  speak  also  of  navigation. 
Who  discovered  the  continent  on  which  we  now  live.  Was  it  not  a 
Catholic?  Who  made  the  second  voyage  to  this  continent,  and 
stamped  his  name  upon  it?  Was  it  not  a  Catholic?  Americus 
Vespucius.  Who  made  the  first  voyage  round  the  globe?  Was  it 
not  a  Catholic?  And  Catholics  were  the  first  to  visit  both  the  East  and 
the  West  Indies;  they  traversed  seas  to  carry  the  knowledge  of  Jesus 
Christ  to  the  ignorant,  and  they  then  became  acquainted  with  the 
physical  position  of  different  countries,  and  they  conveyed  that  know- 
ledge to  the  world  either  in  letters  or  other  documents,  and  added  a 
m  iss  of  human  knowledge,  which  had  assumed  a  gigantic  size  before 
Protestantism  first  sprang  out  of  the  earth.  And  while  things  of  a 
less  beneficial  tendency  were  going  on  in  other  parts  of  the  globe, 
Catholic  Missionaries,  200  years  ago,  penetrated  this  country  and 
continued  a  chain  round  from  Quebec  to  the  Mississippi.  While 
persecution  was  going  on  in  the  North  and  the  South,  with  which 
Catholics  had  nothing  to  do,  their  free  banner  waved  over  Maryland, 
where  the  rights  of  conscience  were  recognized.  They  went  to  the 
Indians,  not  to  destroy  bui  to  convert,  to  save,  and  to  civilize.  And 
if  we  turn  onr  eyes  from  these  things  to  others,  we  shall  sec  those 
things  which  are  calculated  to  reflect  honor  ou  those  who  effected 
their  accomplishment.  When  we  see  the  alleviation  of  the  infirmi- 
ties of  human  life,  we  naturally  ask  ourselves  to  whom  the  world  was 
indebted  for  the  act  of  mercy.  Who  planned  the  structures  and  laid 
the  foundations  of  these  hospitals  for  the  afflicted,  and  asylums  for  the 
decropid,  the  aged,  and  the  young  and  exposed  infant  ?  Were  they 
not  all  introduced  and  established  by  the  benevolent  spirits  and  the 
enlightened  minds  of  the  Cathoiics  ol  antiquity  ?  Turn  your  minds 
to  other  structures,  and  then  ask  who  laid  the  foundations  of  the  uni- 
versities? Who  originated  the  idea  ?  Who  aided  their  establish- 
ment ?  It  was  Catholics  alone,  and  if  you  blot  out  the  benevolent  in- 
stitutions with  which  the  earth  is  still  studded,  for  which  the  world 
is  indebted  to  Catholics,  you  will  find  but  few  insignificant  ones 
remaining.  If  you  turn  again  from  these  things  to  the  men  u.stin- 
guished  by  their  own  intellect — to  warriors,  and  legislators — to  men 
distinguished  by  their  eloquence,  by  their  scientific  attainments,  in 


jurisprudence,  or  in  other  stations  in  public  life,  where  do  you  find 
models  worthier  of  imitation  thin  those  by  whom  the  pages  of  Catho- 
lic history  are  adorned.  Passing  again  fiom  these  to  the  ornament 
of  ancient  literature,  of  classic  Greece  and  Rome,  and  while  desola- 
tion and  barbarism  passed  over  Europe  with  their  trains  of  evillj 
who,  by  patient,  persevering  industry,  gathered  up  the  fragments  of 
ancient  litertture  to  adorn  the  human  mind  ?  It  was  done  by  the  la- 
bor, of  the  calumniated  monks.  Yes,  you  may  turn  your  eyes  on 
whatever  side  you  please,  and  you  will  find  that  Catholics  have  no- 
thing of  which  to  he  ashamed.  You  will  find  ii  i  re  ^on  fur  the  sup- 
pression of  all  these  things  with  which  Catholics  can  charge  tin  tn- 
aelves,  but  you  will  find  in  every  department  if  you  take  away  the 
volumes  Catholics  have  written,  and  the  mighty  hbrarii  s  they  have 
collected,  your  shelves  will  present  a  barren  appearance.  Why,  we 
have  the  testimony  of  eminent  Protestant  scholars  themselves,  attest- 
ing the  fact  that  one  single  order  alone— the  order  of  Benedictines — 
did  more  than  all  the  Protestants  together.  In  every  species  of  know- 
ledge— in  history,  jurisprudence,  and  canonical  and  civil  law— in  a 
word,  in  every  thing  appertaining  to  human  knowledge,  it  was  found 
that  the  great  predoini iianee  wan  due  to  Catholic  labor  and  Catholic 
success;  and  why  then  do  we  not  find  one  page  to  adorn  these  school 
books  irom  authors  like  these.  Again,  where  are  there  poets  like 
Catholic  poets  ?  Take  from  England  the  works  of  Catholic  writers 
— take  away  her  Chaucer,  and  Spenser,  and  Shakspearc,  and  Dry- 
den,  and  Pope,  and  you  take  away  the  cream  of. English  literature. 
Then  if  you  turn  your  minds  from  these  things  to  others  not  so  im- 
mediately essential  to  the  cultivation,  but  to  the  adornment  of  human 
life — take  the  study  of  the  mathematics — and  who  was  the  first  to 
cultivate  that  study  in  the  West  of  Europe?  Who  invented,  and  ar- 
ranged, and  introduced  thai  science  but  the  Monk  Jerbert,  afterwards 
Pope  Sylvoster  II — the  same  who  introduced  the  first  celestial  globes. 
Then  again  in  architecture  and  its  application  to  the  construction  of 
bridges,  which  at  one  period  of  European  history  could  not  be  con- 
structed without  calling  in  the  aid  of  some  leanied  man  from  a  dis- 
tant country,  who  was  usually  some  humble  Monk  who  knew  how  to 
throw  the  daring  arch,  to  span  the  river,  or  to  cross  the  otherwise  im- 
passable valley.  Take  away  from  England  even  the  architectural 
structures  left  by  Catholics,  and  what  will  remain?  Scarcely  any- 
thing. Oxford  would  disappear,  and  the  greater  part  of  Cambridge, 
and  nothing  would  be  left  hut  St.  Paul's,  of  which  Lord  Kingsbury 
s.i  id,  after  seeing  St.  Peter's,  it  was  scarcely  fit  for  anything  but  to  be 
blown  up  by  gunpowder.  If  we  turn  from  these  things  to  inventions, 
we  may  ask,  who  invented  the  art  of  printing  ?  A  Catholic  Who 
originated  that  by  which  information  was  sent  round  through  every 
village  and  hamlet — the  post-office  ?  A  Catholic.  Who  invented 
the  clock  to  tell  what  time  of  day  it  is  ?  A  Catholic.  Who  invent- 
ed the  compass  to  guide  the  mariner  across  the  trackless  ocean  ?  A 
Catholic.  What  is  it  that  Catholics~have  not  done  ?  And  if  this  is 
the  history  of  this  people,  why  is  it  that  these  teachers  despise  them, 
and  why  is  it  that  not  a  line  from  Catholic  authors  is  permitted  in 
their  books  ?  And  they  prctenJed  to  be  all  impartiality  and  to  pos- 
sess feelings  of  the  most  liberal  and  philanthropic  character.  But 
turn  away  from  this  again  to  another  thing,  rherc  are  afflictions 
resting  on  tho  children  of  sorrow,  some  of  whom  are  deprived  of 
sight,  and  the  sunbeam  falls  to  the  earth  in  vain  for  them.  Now  it 
was  a  work  of  benevolence  to  discover  eyes  for  these  children  of  sor- 
row, and  to  place  them  at  the  end  of  their  fingers — or  in  other  words 
to  enable  them,  by  running  their  fingers  over  raised  characters,  to 
read  with  rapidity  ;  and  it  is  to  a  Catholic  that  the  invention  is  to  be 
attributed.  Again  there  is  another  class,  the  deaf  and  dumb,  who 
can  neither  hear  nor  speak.  Now  happily  for  thorn,  there  is  an  in- 
vention, which  emanated  from  a  benevolent  heart,  by  which  they  can 
communicate  thought,  and  for  this  they  are  indebted  to  a  Catholic 
priest.  The  language  for  the  deaf  and  dumb,  was  the  invention  of 
the  Abby  Ponza,  a  Benedictine  of  Spain. 

Now  if  these  gentlemen  of  the  Public  Schools  will  place  Catholics 
under  a  dark  cloud,  I  see  no  reason  why  we  should  not  penetrate  that 
cioud,  and  cause  some  part  of  the  rays  of  our  former  glory  to  return  to 
us.  It  was  then  again  the  Abby  L'Epee,  who  on  visiting  two  sisters 
thus  afflicted,  as  a  man  of  God,  was  himself  afflicted  that  he  could 
not  communicate  to  them  the  Christian  religion.  He  began  to  move 
by  signs,  and  continued  to  improve  pn  his  attempt,  until  at  length  he 
acquired  the  means  of  communicating  with  the  deaf  and  dumb  with 
ease  and  rapidity. 

Who  was  the  founder  of  Sunday  Schools?  It  was  Saint  Charles 
Borromeo — a  Catholic.  In  a  word  there  is  no  department  of  know- 
ledge in  which  Catholics  have  not  been  distinguished.  But  to  go 
further,  who  discovered  a  quicker  means  of  communication  than  the 
railroad  ?  It  is  not  used  so  extensively  in  this  country  as  in  some 
others,  but  it  may  be  important  even  here,  if  an  invasion  should  be 
made  of  any  part  of  our  coast,  to  communicate  information  to  *>\  ash- 
ington  and  receive  an  answer  back  in  less  time  than  it  could  be  done 
by  railroads  ;  he  would  deserve  a  prize  who  should  invent  the  means 


6 


of  sending  information  from  Niagara  to  Washington  ittd  reiving 
an  answer  back  in  six  or  seven  hours.  And  yet  the  equivalent 
of  this  has  been  done  by  a  Catholic  priest  who  invented  the  tele- 
graph. If  wc  turn  to  music,  who  has  brought  it  to  its  present  state 
by  the  perfection  of  instrumental  music  ?  Who  has  taught  the  can- 
vas to  speak  ?  And  who  has  given  life  and  animation  to  the  cold 
marble  !  Catholics.  And  all  the  boasted  superiority  of  Protestants 
is  yet  an  infinite  distance  from  the  productions  of  Catholics,  and 
they  are  proud  to  distraction  if  they  succeed  in  producing  a  tolera- 
ble copy  of  that  which  Catholics  have  invented.  I  have  thus  en- 
deavored to  claim  for  Catholics  that  to  which  they  are  confessedly  en- 
titled. The  gentlemen  ot  the  public  schools  have  not  treated  us  fair- 
ly or  honorably,  when  they  have  thought  proper  to  fill  their  pages  for 
the  instruction  of  our  children,  from  Hume  and  Robertson,  and  other 
Protestant  writers  who  were  all  opposed  to  the  Catholics,  and  have 
not  given  one  sentence  from  Catholic  authors." 

PETITION. 

TO  THE  HONORABLE  THE  BOARD  OF  AL- 
DERMEN OF  THE  CITY  OF  NEW  YORK. 

The  Petition  of  the  Catholics  of  New  York  Respectfully 
Represents : 

That  your  Petitioners  yield  to  no  class  in  their  performance  of,  and 
disposition  to  perform,  all  the  duties  of  citizens.  They  bear,  and  are 
willing  to  bear  their  portion  of  every  common  burthen;  and  feel 
themselves  entitled  to  a  participation  in  every  common  benefit. 

This  participation,  they  regret  to  say,  has  been  denied  them  for 
years  back,  in  reference  to  Common  School  Education  in  the  city  of 
New  York,  except  on  conditions  with  which  their  conscience,  and, 
as  they  believe,  their  duty  to  God,  did  not,  and  does  not  leave  them 
ot  liberty  to  comply* 

The  rights  of  conscience  in  this  country,  are  held  by  both  the  con- 
stitution and  universal  consent,  to  be  sacred  and  inviolable.  No 
stronger  evidence  of  this  need  be  adduced  than  the  fact,  that  one  class 
of  citizens  are  exempted  from  the  duty  or  obligation  of  defending 
their  country  against  any  invading  foe,  out  of  delicacy  and  deference 
to  the  rights  of  conscience  which  forbids  them  to  take  up  arms  for 
any  purpose. 

Your  Petitioners  only  claim  the  benefit  of  this  principle,  in  regard 
to  the  public  education  of  their  children.  They  regard  the  public 
education  which  the  State  has  provided  as  a  common  benefit,  in 
which  they  are  most  desirous,  and  feel  that  that  they  are  entitled  to 
participate  ;  and  therefore  they  pray  your  Honorable  Body  that  they 
may  be  permitted  to  do  so,  without  violating  their  conscience. 

Bnt  your  Petitioners  do  not  ask  that  this  prayer  be  granted,  with- 
out assigning  their  reasons  for  preferring  it. 

In  ordinary  cases  men  are  not  required  to  assign  the  motives  of 
conscientious  scruples  in  matters  of  this  kind.  But  ycur  Petitioners 
are  aware  that  a  large,  wealthy,  and  concentrated  influence  is  directed 
against  their  claim  by  the  corporation  called  the  Public  School  Socie- 
ty. And  that  this  influence,  acting  on  a  public  opinion  already  but 
too  much  predisposed  to  judge  unfavorably  of  the  claims  of  your  Peti- 
tioners, requires  to  be  met  by  facts  which  justify  them  in  thus  ap- 
pealing to  your  Honorable  Body,  and  which  may  at  the  same  time, 
convey  a  more  correct  impression  to  the  public  mind.  Your  Peti- 
tioners adopt  this  course  the  more  willingly,  because  the  justice,  and 
impartiality  which  distinguish  the  decisions  of  public  men  in  this 
country,  inspire  them  with  the  confidence  that  your  Honorable  Body 
will  maintain,  in  their  regard,  the  principle  of  the  rights  of  con- 
science if  it  can  be  done  without  violating  the  rights  of  others,  and 
on  no  other  condition  is  the  claim  solicited. 

It  is  not  deemed  necessary  to  trouble  your  Honorable  Body  with  a 
detail  o'the  circumstances  by  which  the  monopoly  of  the  public  edu- 
cation of  children  in  the  city  of  New  York,  and  of  the  funds  provided 
for  that  purpose,  at  the  expense  of  the  State,  have  passed  into  the 
hands  of  a  private  corporation,  styled  in  its  act  of  charter,  "The 
Public  School  Society  of  the  City  of  New  York."  It  is  composed  of 
men  of  different  sects  or  denominations.  But  that  denomination 
Friends,  which  is  believed  to  have  the  controlling  influence,  both  by 
its  numbers  and  otherwise,  holds  as  a  peculiar  sectarian  principle, 
that  any  formal  or  official  teaching  of  religion  is,  at  best  unprofi'able. 
And  your  Petitioners  have  discovered  that  such  of  their  children  as 
have  attended  the  Public  Schools,  are  generally  and  at  an  early  age, 
imbued  with  the  same  principle — that  they  become  untractable,  diso- 
bedient, and  even  contemptuous  towards  their  parcuts — unwilling  to 
learn  any  thing  of  religion — as  if  they  had  become  illuminated,  and 
could  receive  all  the  knowledge  of  religion  nccessiry  for  them,  by  in- 
stinct or  inspiration.  Your  Petitioners  do  not  pretend  to  assign  the 
cause  of  this  change  in  their  children,  they  only  attest  the  fact  as  re- 
sulting from  their  attendance  at  the  Public  Schools  of  the  Public 


This  Society,  however,  is  compoaedof 

including  even  one  or  two  Catholics.  BtW.  th 
Sectarianism  from  their  schools.    If  they  au 
ism,  they  are  avowedly  no  more  entitled  to  the  bet. 
your  Petitioners,  or  any  other  denomination  of  professing 
If  they  do  as  they  profess,  exclude  sectarianism,  then  your  t*. 
ers  contend  that  they  exclude  Christianity,  and  leave  to  the  advantab 
of  infidelity,  the  tendencies  which  are  given  to  the  minds  of  yoth 
by  the  influence  of  this  feature  and  pretension  of  their  system.  If 
they  could  accomplish  what  they  profess,  other  denominations  would 
join  your  petitioners  in  remonstrating  against  their  schools.  But 
they  do  not  accomplish  it.  Your  Petitioners  will  show  your  Honora- 
ble Body  that  they  do  admit  what  Catholics  call  sectarianism,  (al- 
though others  may  call  it  only  religion)  in  a  great  variety  of  ways. 

In  their  22d  Report,  as  far  back  as  the  year  1327,  they  tell  us,  page 
14,  that  they  "  are  aware  of  the  importance  of  early  religious  instruc- 
tion," and  that  none  but  what  is  "  exclusively  general  and  scriptural 
in  its  character,  should  be  introduced  into  the  schools,  under  their 
charge."  Here,  then,  is  their  own  testimony  that  they  did  introduce 
and  authorise  "  religious  instruction"  in  their  schools.  And  that 
they  solved,  with  the  utmost  composure,  the  difficult  question  on 
which  the  sects  disagree  by  determining  what  kind  of"  religious  in- 
struction" is  "  exclusively  general  and  scriptural  in  its  character." 

Neither  could  they  impart  this  "  early  religious  instruction"  them- 
selves. They  must  have  left  it  to  their  teachers,  and  these  armed 
with  official  influence,  could  impress  those  "  early  religious  instruc- 
tions" on  the  susceptible  minds  of  the  children,  with  the  authority  of 
dictators. 

The  Public  School  Society,  in  their  report  for  the  year  1832,  page 
10,  describe  the  effects  of  these  "  early  religious  instructions,"  with- 
out perhaps  intending  to  do  so,  but  yet  precisely  as  your  Petitioners 
have  witnessed  it,  in  such  of  their  children  as  attended  those  schools. 
"  The  age  at  which  children  are  usually  sent  to  school,  affords  a 
much  better  opportunity  to  mould  their  minds  to  peculiar  and  exclu- 
sive forms  of  faith,  than  any  subsequent  period  of  life."  In  page  11 
of  the  same  report,  they  protest  against  the  injustice  of  supporting 
"  religion  in  any  shape"  by  public  money,  as  if  the  early  religious  in- 
struction which  they  themselves  authorized  in  their  schools,  five 
years  before,  was  not  "religion  in  some  shape,"  and  was  not  sup- 
ported by  public  taxation.  They  tell  us  agaio  in  more  guarded  lan- 
guage, "  The  trustees  are  deeply  impressed  with  the  importance  of 
imbuing  the  youthful  mind  with  religious  impressions,  and  they 
have  endeavored  to  attain  this  object,  as  far  as  the  nature  of  the  insti- 
tution will  admit."    Report  of  1837,  page  7. 

In  their  33d  Annual  Report,  they  tell^us  that  "  they  would  not  be 
understood  as  regarding  religious  impressions,  iu  early  youth  as  un- 
important. On  the  contrary'they  desire  to  do  all  which  may  with 
propriety  be  done  to  give  a  right  direction  to  the  minds  of  the  chil- 
dren  entrusted  to  their  care.  Their  schools  are  uniformly  opened 
with  fne  reading  of  the  scriptures,  and  the  class  books  are  such  as  re- 
cognise and  enforce  the  great,  and  generally  acknowledged  principles 
of  Christianity."    Pa§e  7. 

In  their  34th  annual  report  for  the  year  1839,  they  pay  a  high  com- 
pliment to  a  deceased  teacher,  for  the  "  moral  and  religious  influence 
exerted  by  her,  over  the  three  hundred  girls,  daily  attending  her 
school,"  and  tell  us  that  "  it  could  not  but  have  a  lasting  effect  on 
many  of  their  susceptible  minds."  Page  7.  And  yet  in  all  these 
"  early  religious  institutions — religious  impressions,  and  religious 
influence,"  essentially  anti-Catholic,  your  Petitioners  are  to  see 
nothing  sectarian — but  if  in  giving  the  education  which  the  State 
requires,  they  were  to  bring  the  same  influences  to  bear  on  the  "  sus- 
ceptible minds  of  their  oion  children,  in  favor,  and  not  against  their 
own  religion,  then  this  society  contends  that  it  would  be  sectarian  !  " 

Your  Petitioners  regret  there  is  no  means  of  ascertaining  to  what 
extent  the  teachers  in  the  schools  of  the  Society  carried  out  the  views 
of  their  principals,  on  the  importance  of  conveying  "early  relegious 
instructions"  to  the  susceptible  minds  of  the  children.  But  they  be- 
lieve it  is  in  their  power  to  prove  that  in  some  instances,  the  scrip- 
tures have  been  explained,  as  well  as  read  to  the  pupils. 

Even  the  reading  of  the  scriptures  in  those  schools,  your  Petitioners 
cannot  regard  otherwise  than  as  sectarian ;  because  Protestants 
would  certainly  consider  as  such  the  intention  of  the  Catholic  scrip- 
tures, which  are  different  from  theirs — and  the  Catholics  have  the 
same  ground  to  objection,  when  the  Protestant  version  is  made  use 
of,  Your  Petitioners  have  to  state  further,  as  grounds  of  their  con- 
scientious objections  to  those  schools,  that  many  of  the  selections  in 
their  elementary  reading  lessons  contain  matter  prejudicial  to  the 
Catholic  name  and  character.  The  term  "  Popery"  is  repeatedly 
found  in  them.  This  term  is  known  and  employed  as  one  of  insult 
and  contempt  towards  the  Catholic  religion,  and  it  posses  into  tho 
mind  of  children  with  the  feeling  of  which  it  is  the  outward  expres- 
sion. Both  the  historical  and  religious  portions  of  the  reading  les- 
sons are  selected  from  Protestant  writers,  whose  prejudices  against 
the  Catholic  religion  render  them  unworthy  of  confidence  in  the  mini 


trto  far  ai  their  own  children  are  con- 

oociely  have  heretofore  denied  that  their  books 
.iiie  reasonably  objectionable  to  Catholics.  Proofs 
.ary  could  be  multiplied,  but  it  is  unnecessary,  as  they 
ocently  retracted  their  dcniul,  and  discovered, after  fifteen  years 
.ijoymentof  their  monopoly,  that  their  books  do  contain  objection*- 
ble  passages.  But  they  allege  that  they  have  proffered  repeatedly  to 
make  such  corrections  as  the  Catholic  clergy  might  require.  Your 
Petitioners  conceive  that  such  a  proposal  could  not  be  carried  into 
effect  by  the  Public  School  Society,  without  given  just  grounds  for 
exceptions  to  other  denominations.  Neither  can  they  sec  with  what 
consistency  that  society  can  insist  as  it  has  done,  on  the  perpetuation 
of  its  monopoly,  when  the  Trustees  thus  avow  their  incompetency  to 
present  unexceptionable  books,  without  the  aid  of  the  Catholic  or  any 
Other  clergy.  They  allcs-e,  indeed,  that  with  the  best  intentions,  they 
have  been  unable  to  ascertain  the  passages  which  might  he  offensive 
to  Catholics.  With  their  intentions,  your  Petitioners  cannot  enter 
into  any  question.  Nevcrtherthcless,  they  submit  to  your  Honorable 
Body  that  this  Society  is  eminently  incompetent  for  the  superinten- 
dence of  public  education,  if  they  could  not  see  that  the  following 
passages  was  unfit  for  the  Public  Schools,  and  especially  unfit  to  be 
placed  in  the  hands  of  Catholic  children. 

They  will  quote  the  passage  as  one  instance,  taken  from  Putnam's 
Sequel,  page  296. 

**  Huss  John,  a  zealous  reformer  from  Popery,  who  lived  in  Bohe- 
mia towards  the  close  of  the  fourteenth,  and  the  beginning  of  the 
fifteenth  centuries.  He  was  bold  and  persevering  ;  but  at  length 
trusting  to  the  deceitful  Catholics,  he  was  by  them  brought  to  trial, 
condemned  as  heretic,  and  burnt  at  the  stake." 

The  Public  School  Society  may  be  excused  for  not  knowing  the 
historical  inaccuracies  of  this  passage  ;  but  surely  assistance  of  the 
Catholic  clergy  could  not  have  been  necessary  to  an  understanding 
of  the  word  "deceitful,"  as  applied  to  all  who  profess  the  religion  of 
your  Petitioners. 

For  these  reasons,  and  others  of  the  same  kind,  your  Petitioners 
cannot  in  conscience,  and  conscientiously  with  their  sense  of  duly 
to  God,  and  to  their  offspring,  entrust  the  Public  School  Society  with 
the  office  of  giving  "a  right  direction  to  the  minds  of  their  children." 
And  yet  this  Society  claims  that  office,  and  claims  for  the  discharge 
of  it,the  Common  School  funds  to  which  your  Petitioncrs.in  common 
with  other  citizens  are  contributors.  In  so  far  as  they  are  con- 
tributors, they  are  not  only  deprived  of  any  benefit  in  return, 
but  their  money  is  employed  to  the  damage  and  detriment 
of  their  religion,  on  the  minds  of  their  own  children,  and  of  the 
rising  generation  of  the  community  at  large.  The  contest  is 
between  the  guaranteed  rights,  civil  and  religious  of  the  citizen 
on  the  one  hand,  and  the  pretensions  of  the  Public  School  Society 
on  the  other  ;  and  whilst  it  has  been  silently  going  on  for  years, 
your  Petitioners  would  call  the  attention  of  your  Honorable  Body,  to 
its  consequences  on  the  class  tor  whom  the  benefits  of  public  educa- 
tion are  most  essential — the  children  of  the  poor. 

This  class,  (your  Petitioners  speak  only  so  far  as  relates  to  their 
own  denomination)  after  a  brief  experience  of  the  schools  of  the 
Public  School  Society,  naturally  and  deservedly  withdraw  all  confi- 
dence from  it.  Hence  the  establishment  by  your  Petitioneis  of 
schools  for  the  education  of  the  poor. 

The  expense  necessary  for  this,  was  a  second  fixation,  required 
not  by  the  laws  of  the  land,  but  the  no  less  imperious  demands  of 
their  conscience. 

They  were  reduced  to  the  alternative  of  seeing  their  children  grow- 
ing up  in  entire  ignorance,  or  else  taxing  themselves  anew  for  pri- 
vate schools,  whilst  the  funds  provided  for  education,  and  contributed 
in  part  by  themselves,  were  given  over  to  the  Public  School  Society, 
and  by  them  employed  as  has~been  stated  above. 

Now  your  Petitioners  respectfully  submit,  that  without  this  confi- 
dence, no  body  of  men  can  discharge  the  duties  of  education  as  in-e 
.ended  by  the  State  and  required  by  the  people.    The  Public  Schook 
Society  are.and  have  been  at  all  times,  conscious  that  thev  had  not  t 
confidence  of  the  poor.  In  their  2Sth  Report,  they  appeal  "to  the  ladi 
of  New  York  to  create  or  procure  it  by  the  "persuasive  eloquence  °t 
female  kindness,"  page  5  ;  and  from  this  they  pass  on  to  the  nex 
page,  to  the  more  efficient  eloquence  of  coercion  under  penalties  and 
privations,  to  be  visited  on  all  persons,  "whether  emigrant  er  other- 
wise," who  being  in  the  circumstances  of  poverty  referred  to,  should 
not  send  their  children  to  some  "public  or  other  daily  school." 

In  their  27th  Report,  pages  15  and  16,  they  plead  for  the  doctrine, 
and  recommend  it  to  public  favor,  by  the  circumstance  that  it  w  11 
effect  but  "few  natives."— But  why  should  it  be  necessary  at  all,  if 
they  possessed  that  coufidence  of  the  poor,  without  which  thev  need 
never  hope  to  succeed.  So  well  are  they  convinced  of  this,  that  no 
longer  ago  than  last  year,  they  gave  up  all  hope  of  inspiring  it,  and 
loudly  call  for  coercion  by  "the  strong  arm  of  the  civil  poioer"  to  sup- 


ply its  deficiency.    Your  Petitioners  will  close  this  part  of  their 

statement  with  the  expression  of  their  surprise,  and  regret  that  gen- 
tlemen who  are  themselves  indebted  much  to  the  respect  which  is 
properly  cherished  for  the  rights  of  conscience,  should  be  so  unmind- 
ful of  the  same  rights  in  the  case  of  your  Petitioners.  Many  of 
them  are  by  religious  principle,  so  pacific  they  would  not  take  up 
arms  in  the  defence  of  the  liberties  of  their  country,  though  she 
should  call  them  to  her  aid  :  and  yet  they  do  not  hesitate  to  invoke 
the  "strong  arm  of  the  civil  power"  for  the  purpose  of  abridging  the 
private  liberties  of  their  fellow  citizens,  who  may  feel  equally  con- 
scientious. 

Your  Petitioners  have  to  deplore,  as  a  consequence  of  this  state  of 
tilings,  the  ignorance  and  vice  to  which  hundreds,  nay  thousands  of 
their  children  arc  exposed.  They  have  to  regret,  also,  that  the  edu- 
cation which  they  can  provide,  under  the  disadvantages  to  which 
they  have  been  subjected,  is  not  as  efficient  as  it  should  be.  But 
should  your  Honorable  Body  be  pleased  to  designate  their  schsols  as 
entitled  to  realise  a  just  proportion  of  the  Public  Funds  which  belong 
to  your  Petitioners  in  common  with  other  citizens,their  schools  could 
be  improved  for  those  who  attend  ;  others  now  growing  up  in  igno- 
rance could  he  received,  and  the  ends  of  the  Legislature  could  be  ac- 
complished ;  a  result  which  is  manifestly  hopeless  under  the  present 
system. 

Your  Petitioners  will  now  invite  the  attention  of  Your  Honorable 
Body  to  the  objections  and  misrepresentations  that  have  been  urged 
by  the  Public  School  Society,  to  granting  the  claim  of  your  Petition- 
ers. It  is  urged  by  them  that  it  would  be  appropriating  money  rais- 
ed by  general  taxation  to  the  support  of  the  Catholic  Religion.  Your 
Petitioners  join  issue  with  them,  and  declare  unhesitatingly,  that  if 
this  objection  can  be  established,  the  claim  shall  be  forthwith  aban- 
doned. It  is  objected  thai  though  we  arc  taxed  as  citizens,  we  apply 
for  the  benefits  of  education  as  "Catholics."  Your  Petitioners,  to  re- 
move this  difficulty,  beg  to  be  considered  in  their  application  in  the 
identical  capacity  in  which  they  arc  taxed,  viz.,  as  citizens  of  the 
commonwealth.  It  has  been  contended  by  the  Public  School  Society 
that  the  law  disqualified  schools  which  admit  any  profession  of  reli- 
gion, from  receiving  any  encouragements  from  the  School  Fund. — 
Your  Petitioners  have  two  solutions  for  this  pretended  difficulty.  1. 
Your  Petitioners  are  unable  to  discover  any  such  disqualification  in 
the  law,  which  merely  delegates  to  your  Honorable  Body  the  autho- 
rity and  discretion  of  determining  what  schools  or  societies  shall  be 
entitled  to  its  bounty.  2.  Your  Petitioners  are  willing  to  fulfill  the 
conditions  of  the  law  as  far  as  religious  teaching  is  prescribed, 
during  school  hours.  In  fine,  your  Petitioners,  to  remove  nil  objec- 
tion, are  willing  that  the  material  organization  of  their  schools,  and 
the  disbursements  of  the  funds  allowed  for  them,  should  be  conduct- 
ed and  made  by  persons  unconnected  with  the  religion  of  your  Peti- 
tioners, even  the  Public  School  Society,if  it  should  please  your  Hon- 
orable Body  to  appoint  them  for  that  purpose.  The  public  may  then 
be  assured  that  the  money  will  not  be  applied  to  the  support  of  the 
Catholic  religion. 

It  is  deemed  necessary  by  your  Petitioners  to  save  the  Public 
School  Society  the  necessity  of  future  misconception,  thus  to  state 
the  things  which  are  not  petitioned  for.  The  members  of  that  Soci- 
ety who  have  shown  themselves  so  impressed  with  the  importance  of 
conveying  their  notions  of  "early  religious  instruction"  to  the  "sus- 
ceptible minds"  of  Catholic  children,  can  have  no  objection  that  the 
parents  of  the  children,  and  teachers  in  whom  the  parents  have  confi- 
dence, should  do  the  same,  provided  no  law  is  violated  thereby,  and 
no  disposition  evinced  to  bring  the  children  of  other  denominations 
within  its  influence. 

Your  Petitioners,  therefore,  pray  that  your  Honorable  Body  will 
be  pleased  to  designate  as  among  the  schools  entitled  to  participate 
in  the  Common  School  Fund,  upon  complying  with  the  requirements 
of  the  law  and  the  ordinances  cf  the  Corporation  of  the  City,  or  for 
such  other  relief  as  to  your  Honorable  Body  shall  seem  meet — St. 
Patrick's  school,  St.  Peter's  school,  St.  Mary's  school,  St.  Joseph's 
school,  St.  James'  school,  St.  Nicholas'  school,Tranfiguration  church 
school,  and  St.  John's  school. 

And  your  Petitioners  further  request,  in  the  event  of  your  Honor- 
able Body's  determining  to  hear  your  Petitioners,  on  the  subject  of 
their  Petition,  that  such  time  may  be  appointed  as  may  be  most 
agreeable  to  your  Honorable  Body,  and  that  a  full  session  of  your 
Honorable  Board  be  convened  for  that  purpose. 
And  your  Petitioners,  kc 

THOMAS  OCONNOR,  Chairman. 
GREGORY  DILLON,  ) 
ANDREW  CARRIGAN,    }  Vice  Chairmen, 
PETER  DUFFY,  ) 
Of  a  general  meeting  of  the  Catholics  of  the  city  of  New  York,  con- 
vened in  the  school-room  of  St.  James'  Church,  fist  of  September, 

1840. 

B.  O'Connor,  J.  Kellt,  J.  McLaughlin,  Secretaries. 


REMONSTRANCES 

Or  the  Trvsteees  of  the  Public  School  Society, 
and  the  Methodist  Episcopal  Church,  Read  and 
Commented  on  in  the  following  Debate. 

To  the  Hon.  the  Board  of  Aldermen 

of  the  City  of  New  York  : 

The  Memorial  and  Remonstrance  of  the  Trustees  of  the  Public 
School  Society  of  New  York,  respectfully  represents : 

That  your  memorialists  learn  that  a  petition  from  the  Roman 
Catholics  ef  this  city  is  now  before  your  honorable  body,  in  which 
they  again  ask  for  a  portion  of  the  school  money  in  aid  of  the  schools 
under  their  charge.  After  the  late  unanimous  decision  of  one  branch 
of  the  Municipal  Government,  in  which  the  other  was  supposed 
tacitly  to  unite,  adverse  to  several  petitions  of  the  same  kind  from 
Religious  Societies,  it  is  unexpected  to  your  remonstrants,  to  be  so 
soon  placed  in  a  position  which,  in  their  opinion,  renders  it  neces- 
sary to  oppose  the  application  of  a  large  and  influential  body  of  their 
fellow  citizens.  But  until  the  confidence  which  has  been  so  long 
reposed  in  them  by  the  city  government  and  the  public  generally,  is 
withdrawn,  they  feel  it  to  be  an  imperious,  though  an  unpleasant 
duty,  to  remonstrate  against  what  they  deem  a  dangerous  appli- 
cation of  funds  raised  for  the  promotion  of  common  and  general  ed  - 
ucation. 

The  subject  has,  however,  been  so  fully  elucidated  and  ably  argued, 
in  documents  now  among  the  public  records,  that  your  remonstrants 
cannot  hope  to  shed  any  additional  light  upon  it.  They  therefore 
beg  leave  to  refer  your  honorable  body  to  Document  No.  80,  of  the 
late  Board  of  Assistant  Aldermen,  as  containing  the  reasons  on 
which  your  remonstrants  would  rely,  in  opposing  the  applications 
of  religious  societies  for  a  portion  of  the  school  fund.  It  is  believed 
that  no  decision  of  the  city  government  ever  met  with  a  more  general 
and  cordial  response  in  the  public  mind.  And  as  the  Roman  Cath- 
olics very  recently  issued  an  address  to  the  people  of  this  city  and 
state,  urging  at  large  their  reasons  for  a  separate  appropriation  of 
school  money,  to  which  your  remonstrants  have  replied,  they  now 
present  copies  of  said  Documents,  which  they  respectfully  submit 
to  your  honorable  body,  as  containing  matter  relevant  to  the  ques- 
tion under  consideration. 

The  petition  of  the  Roman  Catholics  now  pending  presents,  nev- 
ertheless, some  points  which  your  remonstrants  feel  called  upon  to 
notice. 

By  a  misapprehension  of  the  Law  in  relation  to  persons  who  are 
conscientiously  opposed  to  bearing  arms,  which  is  applicable  to  per- 
sons of  every  religious  persuasion,  they  attempt  to  adduce  an  argu- 
ment in  favor  of  the  prayer  of  their  petition,  and  say,  that  they  only 
claim  the  benefit  of  the  same  principle  in  regard  to  the  education  of 
their  children.  Now  the  facts  are,  that  the  law  imposes  a  fine,  or 
tax  as  an  equivalent  for  personal  military  service,  and  in  the  event 
of  there  being  no  property  on  which  to  levy,  subjects  such  persons 
to  imprisonment,  and  numbers  are  every  year  actually  confined  in 
the  jails  of  this  State. 

With  the  religious  opinions  of  the  denomination  of  christians  re- 
ferred to,  your  remot.strants  have  nothing  to  do.  In  opposing  the 
claims  of  the  Roman  Catholic,  and  several  other  churches,  to  the 
school  money,  they  have  confined  their  remarks  to  the  broad  gen- 
eral grounds,  alike  applicable  to  all ;  but  the  petitioners  have  seen 
fit  to  single  out  areligious  society  by  name,  and  intimate  or  indirect- 
ly assert,  not  only  that  their  peculiar  religious  views  lead  to  insub- 
ordination and  contempt  of  parental  authority,  but  that  the  Trustees 
of  the  Public  Schools,  who  are  of  this  denomination,  by  reason  of 
their  numbers  or  the  '•  controlling  influence''  they  exert,  have  intro- 
duced the  "  same  principle"  into  the  public  schools,  and  that  their 
effects  are  manifested  in  the  conduct  of  the  Catholic  children  who 
have  attended  them.  Your  remonstrants  feel  bound,  therefore,  in 
reply,  to  state  that  of  the  one  hundred  citizens  who  compose  the 
Board  of  Trustees,  there  are  only  twelve  of  the  denomination  thus 
traduced,  and  of  these  six  or  seven  accepted  the  situation  by  solici- 
tation of  the  Board,  for  the  purpose  of  superintending  the  manage- 
ment of  the  colored  schools,  to  which  object  they  have  almost  ex- 
clusively confined  themselves  ;— of  the  motive  that  induced  this  ex- 
traordinary portion  of  the  petition,  your  remonstrants  will  not  trust 
themselves  to  speak — of  so  much  of  it  as  conveys  an  idea  that  the 
Trustees  who  are  of  this  religious  persuasion,  introduce  or  attempt 
to  introduce  into  the  public  schools  their  own  peculiar  opinions, 
they  can  only  say  that  no  one  of  the  numerous  and  serious  charges 
brought  against  your  remonstrants  by  the  petitioners,  is  more  entire- 
ly destitute  of  foundation  in  fact.  If  a  disposition  existed  in  any 
quarter  to  give  a  sectarian  bins  to  the  minds  of  the  children,  it  will 
readily  be  seen,  that  the  most  successful  method  would  be  through 
the  sf  lection  of  t.  achers. 


In  one  of  the  Documents  now  submitted  to  your  honorable  body, 
it  is  stated  that  in  appointing  teachers,  no  regard  is  had  by  the  Trus- 
tees to  the  religious  profession  of  the  candidates,  and  tnat  six  or 
seven  of  the  present  number  are  Roman  Catholics.  From  an  en- 
quiry now  made  it  is  found  that  only  two  of  the  teachers  belon*  to 
the  Society  of  "  Friends  >' 

It  will  thu3  be  seen  that  the  charge  made  in  the  petition  of  the 
Roman  Catholics,  ttfBt  such  of  their  children  as  have  attended  the 
public  schools  are  generally,  and  at  an  early  age,  imbued  with  a  prin- 
ciple, which  they  impute  to  a  portion  of  the  Trustees,  falls  to  the 
ground,  and  is  proved  to  be  as  unfounded,  as  it  is  illiberal  and  un- 
generous. 

It  is  with  regret  that  your  remonstrants  find  themselves  under  the 
painful  necessity  of  saying,  that  the  petition  of  the  Catholics  contains 
garbled  extracts  and  detached  portions  of  some  parts  of  <heir  an- 
nual reports  in  relation  to  religious  instruction,  and  so  arranged  and 
commented  upon,  as  to  convey  a  meaning  directly  opposite  to  the 
one  intended  and  clearly  expressed  in  the  original  documents. 

The  same  means  are  resorted  to  in  quoting  the  language  of  the 
Trustees  when  urging  the  importance  of  using  measures  for  inducing 
the  poor  to  have  their  children  educated.  On  different  occasions, 
your  remonstrants  have  suggested  to  the  Common  Council,  the  ex- 
pediency of  requiring,  by  legal  enactment,  the  attendance  at  some 
"  public  or  other  daily  school,"  of  the  numerous  "  vagrant  children 
who  roam  about  our  streets  and  wharves,  begging  and  pilfering," 
and  this  is  tortured  in  the  Catholic  petition  into  a  desire  of  "  abridg- 
ing the  private  liberties  of  their  fellow  citizens,"  and  an  acknow- 
ledgement, on  the  part  of  the  Trustees,  "  that  they  had  not  the  con- 
fidence of  the  poor." 

The  records  of  the  schools  will  demonstrate  that  the  industrious 
and  respectable  portions  of  the  laboring  classes  repose  entire  confi- 
dence in  the  public  school  system  and  its  managers. 

The  subject  of  objectionable  matter  in  the  books  used  in  the  pub- 
lic schools,  is  so  fully  discussed  in  the  papers  now  submitted  to  your 
honorable  body,  that  little  more  would  seem  to  be  called  for  under 
this  head.  Finding  their  strenuous  and  long-continued  efforts  to  in- 
duce the  Catholic  clergy  to  unite  in  an  expurgation  of  the  books  un- 
availing, the  Trustees  commenced  the  work  without  them,  and  it  is 
now  nearly  completed.  If  any  thing  remains  to  which  the  petition- 
ers can  take  exception,  no  censure  can,  by  possibility,  attach  to 
your  remonstrants  ;  and  the  Trustees  assert  with  confidence,  that  if 
any  has  escaped  them,  there  is  now  less  matter  objectionable  to  the 
Roman  Catholics,  to  be  found  in  the  books  used  in  the  public  schools 
than  in  those  of  any  other  seminary  of  learning,  either  public  or 
private,  within  this  State. . 

In  conclusion,  your  remonstrants  would  remark,  that  they  have 
not  thought  it  expedient,  on  this  occasion  to  enter  into  a  detailed 
defence  of  their  conduct,  as  regards  all  of  the  charges  preferred  by 
the  Roman  Catholics.  Those  charges  are  before  your  honorable 
body,  and  the  Trustees  will  cheerfully  submit  to  any  inquiry  that 
you  may  see  fit  to  institute  in  relation  to  them  ;  and  even  if  it  can 
be  shown  that  your  remonstrants  are  as  "  eminently  incompetent  to 
the  superintendence  of  public  education"  as  the  petition  ol  the  Ro- 
man Catholics  intimates,  it  would  not,  they  respectfully  suggest, 
furnish  any  apology  for  breaking  down  one  of  the  most  important 
bulwarks  of  the  civ  il  and  religious  liberties  of  the  American  people. 

Should  your  honorable  body  decide  to  hear  the  petitioners  before 
the  collected  Board,  your  remonstrants  respectfully  ask  to  be  heard 
on  the  same  occasion  in  reply. 

JVeu>  Yoik,  October  3d,  1340 

ROBERT  C.  CORNELL,  President. 
A.  P.  Halsey,  Secretary. 

To  the  lion,  the  Common  Council 

of  the  City  of  Neic  York  : 

The  undersigned  Committee,  appointed  by  the  Pastors  of  the 
Methodist  Episcopal  Church  in  this  cit_yw)n  the  part  of  said  Pastors 
and  Churches,  do  most  respectfully  reprWeTft  : 

That  they  have  heard  with  surprise  an\l  alarm,  that  the  Roman 
Catholics  have  renewed  their  application  tVthe  Common  Council, 
for  an  appropriation  from  the  Common  School  Fund,  for  the  support 
ofthe  schools  under  their  own  direction  ;  in  which  they  teach,  and 
propose  still  to  teach,  their  own  sectarian  dogmas  :  not  only  to  their 
own  children,  but  to  such  Protestant  children,  as  they  may  find 
means  to  get  into  these  schools. 

Vour  memorialists  had  hoped  that  the  clear,  cogent  and  unanswer- 
able arguments,  by  which  the  former  application  for  this  purpose 
was  resisted,  would  have  saved  the  Common  Council  from  further 
importunity. 

It  was  clearly  shown,  that  the  Council  could  not  legally  make  any 
sectarian  appropriation  of  the  public  funds;  and  it  was  as  clearly 
shown,  that  it  would  be  utterly  destructive  ofthe  whole  scheme  of 


public  school  instruction  to  do  so,  even  if  it  could  be  legally  done. 
Bat  it  seems  that  neither  the  Constitution  of  the  State,  nor  the  pub- 
He  welfare,  are  to  be  regarded,  when  they  stand  in  the  way  of  Ro- 
man Catholic  sectarianism  and  exclusiveness. 

It  must  be  manifest  to  the  Common  Council,  that  if  the  Roman 
Catholic  claims  are  granted,  all  the  other  Christian  denominations 
will  urge  their  claims  for  a  similar  appropriation ;  and  that  the  money 
raised  lor  education  by  a  general  tax,  will  bf  solely  applied  to  the 
purposes  of  prosely tism,  through  the  medium  of  sectarian  schools. 
But  if  this  were  done,  would  it  be  the  price  of  peace  'f  or  would  it 
not  throw  the  apple  of  discord  into  the  whole  Christian  community, 
should  we  agree  in  the  division  of  the  spoils?  Would  each  sect  be 
satisfied  with  the  portion  allotted  to  it  9  We  venture  to  say  that  the 
sturdy  claimants  who  now  beset  the  Council,  would  not  be  satisfied 
with  much  less  than  the  lion's  share  ;  and  we  are  sure  that  there  are 
other  Protestant  denominations  beside  ourselves,  who  would  not  pa- 
tiently submit  to  the  exaction.  But  when  all  the  Christian  sects 
shall  be  satisfied  with  their  individual  share  of  the  public  fund,  what 
is  to  become  of  those  children  whose  parents  belong  to  none  of 
these  sects,  and  who  cannot  conscientiously  allow  them  to  be  edu- 
cated iti  the  peculiar  dogmas  of  any  one  of  them  ?  The  different 
committees  who,  on  a  former  occasion  approached  your  honorable 
body,  have  shown,  that  to  provide  schools  for  these  only,  would  re- 
quire little  less  than  is  now  expended  ;  and  it  requires  little  arithme- 
tic to  show  that  when  the  religious  sects  have  taken  all,  nothing  will 
remain  for  those  who  have  not  yet  been  able  to  decide  which  of  the 
Christian  denominations  to  prefer.  It  must  be  plain  to  every  im- 
partial observer,  that  the  applicants  are  opposed  to  the  whole  sys- 
temcf  public  school  instruction  ;  and  it  will  be  found  that  the  un- 
charitable exclusiveness  of  their  creed  must  ever  be  opposed  to  all 
public  instruction,  which  is  not  under  the  direction  of  their  own 
priesthood.  They  may  be  conscientious  in  all  this ;  but  though  it 
be  no  new  claim  on  their  part,  we  cannot  yet  allow  them  to  guide 
and  control  the  consciences  of  all  the  rest  of  the  community.  We 
are  sorry  that  the  reading  of  the  Bible  in  the  public  schools,  without 
note  or  commentary,  is  .offensive  to  them  ;  but  we  cannot  allow  the 
holy  Scriptures  to  be  accompanied  with  their  notes  and  ommenta- 
ries,  and  to  be  put  into  the  hands  of  the  children,  who  may  hereaf- 
ter be  the  rulers  and  legislators  of  our  beloved  country  ;  because, 
among  other  bad  things  taught  in  these  commentaries,  is  to  be  found 
the  lawfulnes  of  murdering  heretics,  and  the  unqualified  submission 
in  all  matters  of  conscience  to  the  Roman  Catholic  Church. 

But  if  the  principle  on  which  this  application  is  based  should  be 
admitted,  it  must  be  carried  far  beyond  the  present  purpose. 

If  all  are  to  be  released  from  taxation  when  they  cannot  consci- 
entiously derive  any  benefit  from  the  disbursement  of  the  money  col- 
lected, what  will  be  done  f  r  the  Society  of  Friends,  and  other  sects 
who  are  opposed  to  war,  under  all  circumstances.  Many  of  these, 
besides  the  tax  paid  on  all  foreign  goods  thus  consumed,  pay  direct 
duties  at  the  Custom  House,  which  go  to  the  payment  of  the  army 
and  to  purchase  the  munitions  of  war.  And  even  when  the  gov- 
ernment finds  it  necessary  to  lay  direct  war  taxes,  these  conscien- 
tious sects  aro  compelled  to  pay  their  proportion  on  the  ground  that 
the  public  defence  requires  it.  So,  it  is  believed,  the  public  interest 
requires  the  education  of  the  whole  rising  generation  ;  because  it 
would  be  unsafe  to  commit  the  public  liberty,  and  the  perpetuation 
of  our  republican  institutions  to  those  whose  ignorance  of  their  na- 
ture and  value,  would  render  them  careless  of  their  preservation,  or 
the  easy  dupes  of  artful  innovators  ;  and  hence  every  citizen  is  re- 
quired to  contribute  in  proportion  to  his  means  to  the  public  purpose 
of  universal  education. 

The  Roman  Catholics  complain  that  books  have  been  introduced 
into  the  public  schools,  which  are  injurious  to  them  as  a  body.  It 
is  allowed,  however,  that  the  passages  in  these  books,  to  which  such 
reference  is  made  are  chiefly,  if  not  entirely,  historical ;  and  we  put 
it  to  the  candor  of  the  Common  Council  to  say  whether  any  history 


of  Europe,  for  the  last  ten  centuries,  could  be  written,  which  could 

cither  omit  to  mention  the  Roman  Catholic  Church,  or  mention  it 
without  recording  historical  facts  unfavorable  to  that  Church  ?  We 
assert  that  if  all  the  historical  facts  in  which  the  Church  of  Rome 
has  taken  a  prominent  part  could  be  taken  from  writers  of  her  own 
communion  only,  the  incidents  might  be  made  more  objectionable 
to  the  complainants,  than  any  boo*  to  which  they  now  object 

History  itself,  then  must  be  falsified  for  their  accommodation  !  and 
yet  they  complain  that  the  system  of  education  adopted  in  the  pub- 
lic schools  does  not  teach  the  sinfulness  of  lying  !  They  complain 
that  no  religion  is  taught  in  these  schools,  and  declare  that  any,  even 
the  worst  form  of  Christianity,  would  be  better  than  none  :  arid  yet 
they  object  to  the  reading  of  the  Holy  Scriptures,  which  are  the  only 
foundation  of  all  true  religion.  Is  it  not  plain,  then,  that  they  will 
not  be  satisfied  with  any  thing  short  of  the  total  abandonment  of 
public  school  instruction,  or  the  appropriation  of  such  portion  of  the 
public  fund  as  they  may  claim,  to  their  own  sectarian  purposes. 

But  this  is  not  all.  They  have  been  most  complaisantly  offered 
the  censorship  of  the  books  to  be  used  in  the  public  schools  The 
committee  to  whom  has  been  confided  the  management  of  these 
schools  in  this  city,  offered  to  allow  the  Roman  Catholic  Bishop  to 
expurgate  from  these  books  any  thing  offensive  to  him. 

But  the  offer  was  not  accepted  ;  perhaps  for  the  same  reason  that 
he  declined  to  decide  on  the  admissibility  of  a  book  of  extracts  from 
the  Bible,  which  had  been  sanctioned  by  certain  Bishops  in  Ireland. 
An  appeal,  it  seems  had  gone  to  the  Pope  on  the  subject,  and  nothing 
could  be  said  or  done  in  the  matter  until  bis  Holiness  had  decided! 
The  Com  mon  Council  of  New  York  will  therefore  find,  that  when 
they  shall  have  conceded  to  the  Roman  Catholics  of  this  city  the 
selection  of  books  for  the  use  of  the  public  schools,  that  these  books 
must  undergo  the  censorship  of  a  foreign  Potentate.  We  hope  the 
time  is  far  distant  when  the  citizens  of  this  country  will  alio*  any 
foreign  power  to  dictate  to  them  in  matters  relating  to  either  general 
or  municipal  law. 

We  cannot  conclude  this  memorial  without  noticing  one  other 
ground  on  which  the  Roman  Catholics,  in  their  late  appeal  to  their 
fellow  citizens,  urged  their  sectarian  claims,  and  excused  their  con- 
scientious objections  to  the  public  schools.  Their  creed  is  dear  to 
them,  it  seems,  because  some  of  their  ancestors  have  been  martyrs 
to  their  faith.  This  was  an  unfortunate  allusion.  Did  not  the  Ro- 
man Catholics  know  that  they  addressed  many  of  their  fellow  citizens 
who  could  not  recur  to  the  memories  of  their  own  ancestors  without 
being  reminded  of  the  revocation  of  the  Edict  of  Nantz,  the  massacre 
of  St.  Bartholomew's  day,  the  fires  of  Sroithfield,  or  the  crusade 
against  the  Waldenses  ?  We  would  willingly  cover  these  scenes  with 
the  mantle  of  charity,  and  hope  that  our  Roman  Catholic  fellow  citi- 
zens will  in  future  avoid  whatever  has  a  tendency  to  rev.ve  the 
painful  remembrance. 

Your  memorialists  had  hoped  that  the  intolerance  and  exclusire- 
ness  which  had  characterized  the  Roman  Catholic  Church  in  Eu- 
rope, had  been  greatly  softened  under  the  benign  influences  of  our 
civil  institutions.  The  pertinacity  with  which  their  sectarian  inter- 
ests are  now  urged,  has  dissipated  the  illusion.  We  were  content 
with  their  having  excluded  us,  "  ex  cathedra,"  from  all  claim  to 
h»avpn,  for  we  were  sure  they  did  not  possess  the  keys,  notwith- 
standing their  confident  pretension;  nor  aid  we  complain  that  they 
would  not  allow  us  any  participation  in  the  benefits  of  purgatory, 
for  it  is  a  place  they  have  made  for  themselves,  and  of  which  they 
may  claim  the  exclusive  propriety ;  bat  we  do  protest  against  any 
appropriation  of  the  public  school  fund  for  their  exclusive  benefit,  or 
for  any  other  purposes  whatever. 

Assured  that  the  Common  Council  will  do  what  it  is  right  to  do 
in  the  premises,  we  are,  gentlemen,  with  great  respect, 
Your  most  obedient  servants. 

N.  BANGS, 
THOMAS  E.  BOND, 
GEORGE  PECK. 


DEBATE 


ON  THE 


CLAIM  OF  THE  CATHOLICS  TO  A  PORTION  OF  THE  COMMON  SCHOOL  FUND. 


On  Thursday,  the  29th  October,  the  Board  of  Aldermen 
met  in  special  session,  for  the  purpose  of  hearing  the  argu- 
ments of  the  Catholics  in  favor  of  their  claim  to  a  separate 
portion  of  the  Common  School  Fund,  and  the  School 
Society,  and  the  Societies  of  the  Methodist  Episcopal  Church 
in  opposition.  The  Board  of  Assistant  Aldermen  was 
present,  by  invitation  of  the  Board  of  Aldermen,  to  hear 
the  discussion.  The  deep  interest  which  was  felt  in  the 
question  by  the  community  generally  was  exhibited  by  the 
dense  crowd  which  filled  the  spacious  halls  long  before  the 
doors  of  the  Council  Chamber  were  thrown  open,  and  by 
the  anxious  solicitude  which  was  manifested  to  hear  the 
debate.  Some  time  elapsed  before  the  Aldermen  and  the 
gentlemen  who  were  t©  take  part  in  the  proceedings  could 
obtain  a  passage  through  the  mass  of  human  beings  that 
struggled  for  admission,  even  with  the  aid  of  a  body  of  po- 
lice officers,  and  great  numbers  of  individuals  were  ulti- 
mately unable  to  gain  admission. 

When  the  Board  became  organized,  and  some  points  of 
form  had  been  determined,  it  was  agreed  to  hear  the  parties 
in  the  order  in  which  their  petitions  or  remonstrances  had 
been  received  by  the  Council — viz.  first  the  Catholics,  then 
the  Public  School  Society,  and  lastly  the  Societies  of  the 
Methodist  Episcopal  Church,  which  were  respectively  repre- 
sented by  the  following  Committees  and  Counsel: — The 
Catholics,  by  the  Right  Rev.  Bishop  Hughes,  the  very 
Rev.  Dr.  Power,  Thomas  O'Connor,  Esq.,  Francis 
Cooper,  Esq.,  Dr.  Hugh  Sweeney,  James  M'Keon, 
Esq.,  and  James  Kelij  Esq. ;  the  School  Society,  by 
Theodore  Sedgewick,  Esq.,  and  Hiram  Ketchum, 
Esq.  ;  the  Methodist  Episcopal  Churches,  by  the 
Revs.  Dr.  Bangs,  Dr.  Bond,  and  George  Peck. 

Before  entering  on  the  discussion  the  reading  of  the 
petition  of  the  Catholics  and  the  remonstrances  from  the 
other  Societies  here  represented,  was  called  for  by  the  Al- 
derman of  the  Sixteenth  Ward,  and  they  were  read  ac- 
cordingly by  Mr.  John  Paulding,  the  Reader  to  the 
Board. 


The  Right  Rev.  Bishop  Hughes  then  rose  to  address 
the  Board  in  behalf  of  the  Catholics,  and  spoke  as  follows : 

Gentlemen  of  the  Board  of  Aldermen  : — 

Unaccustomed  as  I  am  to  address  a  body  of  gentlemen 
such  as  I  see  here  before  me,  I  may  not  always  be  correct 
in  the  manner  of  my  address ;  I  hope,  therefore,  that  any 
mistakes  of  mine  may  be  imputed  by  this  Honorable  Board, 
to  my  inexperience.    I  would  also,  on  the  threshold  of  the 
subject  observe,  that  in  no  part  of  the  discussion  on  this 
question,  so  far  as  it  has  gone,  am  I  conscious  of  having  im- 
puted to  any  gentleman  who  is  opposed  to  the  claim  in 
which  I  have  so  deep  an  interest,  any  motive  or  design  of 
a  sinister  character.    I  am  sorry,  therefore,  that  the  Public 
School  Society  should  have  been  pleased  to  refer  to  the 
language  of  our  document  as  though  imputation  had  thereby 
been  cast  upon  their  motives.    I  am  sure  if  they  again  re- 
view our  documents  they  will  not  find  one  solitary  instance 
of  any  imputation  dishonorable  to  them  personally  as  gen- 
tlemen.   We  speak  of  their  system  apart  from  themselves; 
and  we  ?peak  of  it  with  that  freedom  which  it  is  the  right 
of  American  citizens  to  speak  of  the  public  actions  and 
public  proceedings  of  public  men  ;  but  again  will  I  repeat, 
that  in  no  instance  to  my  knowledge  has  there  been  im- 
puted to  those  gentlemen  One  solitary  motive,  one  single 
purpose,  unworthy  of  their  high  standing  and  their  respect- 
able character.    They  have  alleged,  in  some  of  their  docu- 
ments, that  we  charge  them  with  teaching  infidelity  ;  but 
we  have  not  done  soj    We  charge  it  as  the  result  of  their 
system,  not  that  they  are  actively  engaged  in  teaching  infi- 
delity ;  and  not  only  do  we  not  say  this,  but  we  interpose 
the  declaration,  that  we  do  not  believe  such  to  be  their  inten- 
tion, but  that  the  system  has  gone  beyond  their  intention. 
Yet,  after  this,  they  ascribe  to  themselve^  these  imputations, 
and  they  cap  their  salvo  by  saying,  that  even  the  authors  of 
the  address  shrink  from  a  picture  of  their  own  coloring — a 
picture  which  they  not  only  charge  that  we  have  drawn  of 
them,  but  also  of  all  other  classes  and  denominations  of  our 
fellow-citizens.    Now,  I  venture  to  repeat,  that  in  no  in- 
stance have  we  imputed  to  them  motives  which  can  reflect 
on  them  as  honorable  men.    I  make  these  observations  in 
the  commencement,  simply  to  show  how  much  has  been 
written  of  the  petitioners  on  assumptions  which  have  no 
foundation  on  anything  that  has  been  written  or  said  by  us. 
I  know  well  the  Public  School  Society  is  an  institution 
highly  popular  in  the  city  of  New- York;  but  I  should  be 


sorry  to  suppose  that  those  gentlemen  would  permit  them- 
selves to  interpose  that  popularity  between  them  and  the 
justice  which  we  contend  for  when  we  seek  that  to  which 
we  believe  we  have  a  legal  right.  At  the  same  time  it  is 
proper  for  me,  at  the  commencement,  to  clear  away  ano- 
ther objection  which  an  attempt  has  been  made,  in  both 
the  remonstrances  that  have  been  read,  to  oppose  to  the  ex- 
ceedingly simple  principle  for  which  we  contend.  The 
attempt  has  been  made,  (and  you  will  perceive  the  whole 
document,  which  issued  as  a  Report  from  the  Board  of  As- 
sistant Aldermen,  as  well  as  the  remonstrances  of  the  Pub- 
lic School  Society,  and  the  Methodist  Episcopal  Church,  is 
based  on  the  same  false  assumption,)  to  assume  false  pre- 
mises in  this  matter,  which  arc,  that  we  want  this  money 
for  the  promotion  of  the  ecclesiastical  interests  of  our 
Church.  Now,  if  these  Societies  wish  to  enter  their  re- 
monstrances against  our  petition  they  should  first  read  the 
language  in  which  we  have  urged  our  claim,  and  if  they 
had,  they  would  have  saved  themselves  the  trouble,  in  my 
opinion,  of  reasoning  on  arguments  which  are  but  figments 
of  their  own  creation  and  no  proposition  of  ours.  Have 
not  we  distinctly  stated  not  only  what  we  want,  but,  to 
guard  them  against  accusing  us  of  what  we  do  not  want, 
have  we  not  said  that  we  do  not  want  the  public  money  to 
promote  ecclesiastical  interests,  for,  to  this  money,  for  such 
a  purpose,  we  have  no  right.  And,  also,  have  we  not  fur- 
ther stated,  that  if  it  can  be  shown  tltat  we  want  the  money 
for  this  purpose,  that  we  will  abandon  our  claim — that 
if  it  can  be  shown  that  we  want  it  for  sectarian  interests 
we  will  relinquish  it  altogether.  We  have  said  in  the  first 
place — 

"  Y our  petitioners  will  now  invite  the  attention  of  yonr  Honorable 
Body  to  the  objections  and  misrepresentations  that  have  been  urged 
by  the  Public  School  Society  to  granting  the  claim  of  your  petition- 
ers. It  is  urged  by  them  that  it  would  be  appropriating  money 
raised  by  general  taxation  to  the  support  of  the  Catholic  religion. 
Your  petitioners  join  issue  with  them,  and  declare  unhesitatingly, 
that  if  this  objection  can  be  established  the  claim  shall  be  forthwith 
abandoned.  It  is  objected  that  though  we  are  taxed  as  citizens,  we 
apply  for  the  benefits  of  education  as  "  Catholics."  Your  petition- 
ers, to  remove  this  difficulty,  beg  to  be  considered  in  their  applica- 
tion in  the  identical  capacity  in  which  they  arc  taxed — viz.  as  ClUzeni 
of  the  commonwealth.  It  has  been  contended  by  the  Public  School 
Society,  that  the  law  disqualifies  schools  which  admit  any  profession 
of  religion  from  receiving  any  encouragements  from  the  school  fund. 
Your  petitioners  have  two  solutions  for  this  pretended  difficulty. 
First,  Your  petitioners  are  unable  to  discover  any  such  disqualifica- 
tion in  law,  which  merely  delegates  to  your  Honorable  body  the 
authority  and  discretion  of  determining  what  schools  or  societies 
shall  be  entitled  to  its  bounty.  Secondly,  Your  petitioners  are  wil- 
ling to  fulfil  the  conditions  of  the  law  so  far  as  religious  teaching  is 
proscribed  during  school  hours.  In  fine  your  petitioners,  to  remove 
all  objections,  are  willing  that  the  ma'erial  organization  of  their 
schools,  and  the  disbursements  of  the  funds  allowed  for  them,  shall 
be  conducted,  and  made,  by  persons  unconnected  with  the  religion 
of  your  petitioners,  even  the  Public  School  Society,  if  it  should  please 
your  Honorable  Body  to  appoint  them  for  that  purpose.  The  public 
may  then  be  assured  that  the  money  will  not  be  applied  to  the  sup- 
port of  the  Catholic  religion. 

It  is  deemed  necessary  by  your  petitioners  to  save  the  Public 
School  Society  the  necessity  of  future  misconception,  thus  to  state  the 
things  which  are  not  petitioned  for." 

Yet,  notwithstanding  this  clear  and  simple  language,  you 
perceive  both  the  remonstrances,  of  the  School  Society  and 
the  Episcopal  Methodists,  go  on  this  false  issue,  that  we 
want  this  money  for  sectarian  and  iliegal  purposes !  Our 
language  could  not  be  plainer  than  it  was  on  this  point, 
and  yet  there  has  been  uncharitable  ncss  enough  in  these 
Societies  to  assert  the  contrary.  I  have  deemed  it  neces- 
sary to  make  this  explanation  at  the  commencement  to 
impress  your  minds,  gentlemen,  with  what  it  is  we  seek 
and  what  it  is  wc  seek  not,  because  I  know  a  deal  may  be 
done  towards  a  proper  elucidation  of  this  subject  by  pre- 


serving its  simplicity.  The  remonstrants  warn  you,  gen- 
tlemen, against  giving  money  for  sectarian  purposes.  We 
join  them  in  that  admonition.  We  contend  that  we  look 
in  honesty  and  simplicity  alone  for  the  benefits  of  educa- 
tion ;  and  as  members  of  the  commonwealth  and  as  Ca- 
tholics we  seek  but  that  which  we  believe  to  be  just,  and 
legal,  and  right. 

I  shall  now,  gentlemen,  review  very  briefly  both  the  do- 
cuments, because  they  submit  to  your  Honorable  Body  the 
grounds  on  which  that  claim,  which  we  believe  to  be  just, 
is  opposed.  After  the  introduction  of  that  from  the  Public 
School  Society,  we  find  in  the  second  paragraph  the  follow- 
ing passages : — 

"  The  subject,  has,  however,  been  so  fully  elucidated  and  ably 
argued,  in  documents  now  among  the  public  records,  that  your 
remonstrants  cannot  hope  to  shed  any  additional  light  upon  it.  They 
therefore  beg  leave  to  refer  your  honorable  body  to  Document  No.  HO, 
ol  the  Board  of  Assistant  Aldermen,  as  containing  the  reasons  on 
which  your  remonstrant*  would  rely,  in  opposing  the  applications 
of  religious  societies  for  a  portion  of  the  school  fund.  It  is  believed 
that  no  decision  of  the  City  Government  ever  met  with  a  more  gene- 
ral and  cordial  response  in  the  public  mind." 

Ye3  it  may  well  be  so  believed,  lor  the  reason  that  that 
whole  document  went  on  a  falsi,  isiiue,  and  therefore  it  was 
thus  believed.  But  if  I  prove,  as  I  shall  that  the  premises 
had  no  foundation  in  reality  then  the  arguments  founded 
thereon  must  fall  to  the  ground,  for  they^ere  but  castles  in 
the  air.    It  proceeds : — 

"  As  the  Roman  Catholics  very  recently  issued  an  address  to  the 
people  of  this  city  and  state,  urging  at  large  their  reasons  for  a  sepa- 
rate appropriation  of  school  money,  to  which  your  remonstrants  have 
replied,  they  now  present  copies  of  said  Documents,  which  they 
respectfully  submit  to  your  honorable  body,  as  containing  matter  re- 
levant to  the  question  under  consideration 

"  The  petit. on  of  the  Roman  Catholics  now  pending  presents, 
nevertheless,  some  points  which  your  remonstrants  feci  called  upon 
to  no'Jce. 

"  By  a  misapprehension  of  the  Law  in  relation  to  persons  who  are 
conscientiously  opposed  to  bearing  arms,  which  is  applicable  to  per- 
sons of  every  religious  persuasion,  they  attempt  to  adduce  an  argu- 
ment in  favor  ot  the  prayer  of  their  petition,  and  say,  that  they  only 
claim  the  benefit  of  the  same  principle  in  regard  to  the  education  of 
their  children.  Now  the  facts  arc,  that  the  law  imposes  a  fine,  or 
tax  s  an  equivalent  for  personal  military  services,  and  in  the  event 
of  there  being  no  properly  on  which  to  levy,  subjects  such  persons  to 
imprisonment,  and  numbers  are  every  year  actually  confined  in  the 
gaols  of  this  State." 

Now  I  conceive  the  illustration  there  referred  to  was  a 
strong  one.  The  parents  and  guardians  of  tender  offspring 
have  a  right  connected  with  their  nature  by  God  himself  in 
his  wise  Providence,  and  they  should  be  shown  a  strong 
reason  for  transferring  it  to  others.  And  I  adduced  it  as 
an  illustration  and  as  a  strong  one — why  ?  Because  the 
defence  of  the  country  is  a  thing  connected  with  self- 
existence  and  preservation  ;  and  yet,  si  tender  is  the  genius 
of  this  happy  country,  of  the  rights  of  conscience  it  dis- 
pensed with  all  those  who  had  religious  scruples  from  a 
compliance  with  the  law  and  changed  it  into  a  small  fine, 
whereby  the  right  was  shown,  and  also  the  disposition  to 
waive  it. 

"  With  the  religious  opinions  of  the  denomination  of  Christians 
referred  to,  your  remonstrants  have  nothing  to  do.  In  opposing  the 
claims  of  the  Roman  Catholic,  and  several  other  Churches,  to  the 
school  money,  they  have  confined  their  remarks  to  broad  general 
grounds  alike  applicable  to  all ;  but  the  petitioners  have  set u  fit  to 
single  out  a  religious  society  by  name,  and  intimate  or  indirectly 
assert,  not  only  that  their  peculiar  religious  views  lead  to  insubordi- 
nation ana  contempt  of  parental  authority,  but  that  the  trustees  of  the 
Public  Schools,  who  are  of  this  denomination  by  their  numbers  or  the 
"  controlling  influence"  they  exert,  have  introduced  the  1  same  prin- 
c  pie'  into  the  public  schools,  and  that  their  effects  are  manifested  in 
the  conduct  ot  the  Calholx  ch  ldren  who  have  attended  them." 

Now  I  am  exceedingly  surprised  that  tnose  gentlemen 
should  go  so  far  from  the  text  to  draw  reproach  upon  them- 
selves.   We  said  nothing  to  authorize  this  language.  We 


9 


simply  stated  the  fact;  we  mentioned  the  circumstance  of 
the  controlling  influence  of  those  holding  peculiar  sectarian 
views  ;  but  we  did  not  draw  the  conclusion  whether  the 
insubordination  of  the  children  of  our  poor  people  was  the 
result  of  the  principles  taught  in  the  schools  or  of  a  want  of 
domestic  influence.  And  yet  these  gentlemen  have  gone 
on  to  draw  upon  themselves  an  imputation  of  which  we  re- 
spectfully disclaim  the  authorship.    They  proceed  : 

"  Your  remonstrants  feel  bound,  therefore,  in  reply,  to  state,  that 
of  the  one  hundred  citizens  who  compose  the  hoard  of  trustees,  there 
are  only  twelve  of  the  denomination  thus  traduced,  

Now  to  this  charge  of  traducing  we  beg  to  demur. 

 "  and  of  these  six  or  seven  accepted  the  situation  by  solicitation 

of  the  Board,  for  the  purpose  of  superintending  the  management  of 
the  colored  schools,  to  which  object  they  have  almost  exclusively  con- 
fined themselves." 

Now  I  should  be  one  of  the  last  to  detract  from  the 
merits  of  this  denomination.  Some  of  them  I  have  known 
personally,  and  others  by  their  history,  and  my  opinion  has 
always  been  of  them  that  they  are  among  the  foremost  in 
every  benevolent  act  and  social  virtue,  and  to  lend  their 
arm  to  strengthen  the  weak  and  the  oppressed  ;  and  there- 
fore it  is  no  reproach  to  them  that  they  take  the  lead  in  this 
work  of  benevolence  for  which  I  give  them  credit. 

They  go  on  to  say : 

"  Of  the  motive  tint  induced  this  extraordinary  portion  of  the  pe- 
tition, your  remonstrants  will  not  trust  themselves  to  speak,'"  

It  might  be  recollected,  gentlemen,  if  there  were  a  lean- 
ing that  way  it  was  after  the  publication  of  the  "Reply" 
to  our  ("Address,"  which,  though  it  has  the  name,  is  no 
reply  to  our  arguments.  It  is  not  an  answer ;  but  in  it 
they  take  the  occasion  to  sneer  at  us,  as  I  shall  soon  have 
occasion  to  show ;  yet  I  may  here  observe  that  it  would 
have  been  better  if  they  had  addressed  themselves  to  the 
principles  of  eternal  justice  on  which  we  rest. 

"  Of  so  much  of  it,"  they  add  "  as  conveys  an  idea,  that  the  trustees 
w'10  are  of  this  religions  persuasion,  introduce  or  attempt  to  intro- 
duce into  the  public  schools  their  Own  peculiar  opinions  

We  never  charged  that  they  did. 

 "they  can  only  say  that  no  one  of  the  numerous  and  serious 

charges  brought  against  your  remonstrants  by  the  petitioners,  is 
more  entirely  destitu'e  of  foundation  in  fact.  If  a  disposition  ex- 
isted in  any  quarter  to  give  a  sectarian  bias  to  the  minds  of  the 
children,  it  will  readily  be  seen,  that  the  most  successful  method 
would  be  through  the  selection  of  teachers." 

Why  there  was  no  necessity  for  this  vindication  at  all. 

"J"  one  of  the  documents  now  submitted  to  your  Honorable  15cdy, 
it  is  stated,  that  in  appointing  teachers,  no  regard  is  had  by  the  trus- 
tees to  the  religions  profession  of  the  candidates,  and  that  six  or  seven 
of  the  present  number  are  Roman  Catholics." 

I  have  seen  this  statement  figure  in  almost  every  docu- 
ment of  that  society,  and  yet  I  have  not  been  able  to  find 
"six  or  seven  of  the  present  number  who  are  Roman  Ca- 
tholics ;"  and  I  doubt  if  they  can  be  found,  except  they  arc 
such  Roman  Catholics  as  we  see  our  children  become  alter 
they  have  been  in  these  public  schools  ;  that  is  Catholics 
who  have  no  feelings  in  common  with  their  church — Calho- 
lics  who  are  ashamed  of  the  name,  because  in  the  school 
books  and  from  the  teachers  they  hear  of  its  professors  only 
as  "Papists.,"  and  of  the  religion  itself  only  as  "Popery." 
It  is  such  as  these,  I  fear,  that  pass  as  Catholics.  I  only 
know  of  one  who  is  worthy  of  the  name. 

"  From  an  inquiry  now  mode  it  is  found  that  only  two  of  the  teach- 
ers belong  to  the  society  of  Friends.'  " 

And  I  don't  suppose  that  better  teachers  could  be  obtain- 
ed anywhere,  when  confined  within  the  limits  prescribed  ; 
except  they  have  the  privilege  to  introduce  religions  instruc- 
tion. And  without  that  it  matters  but  little  whether  they  are 
of  the  society  of  Friends  or  not.    They  continue: 

"  It  ia  with  regret  that  your  remonstrants  find  themselves  und<  r 
the  painful  necessity,  of  saying,  (hat  the  petition  of  the  Catholics  <  ob- 
tains garbled  extracts  and  detached  portions  of  some  parts  of  tin  ir 
annual  repoits  in  rclaiion  u  religious  instruction,  and  so  anuti^cd 


and  commented  upon,  a3  to  convey  a  meaning  directly  opposite  to  the 
one  intended  and  clearly  expressed  in  the  original  documents." 

Now  I  will  allow  the  reading  of  it  and  if  there  are  any 
garbled  extracts  there  I  will  be  the  first  to  correct  it.  But 
I  am  surprised  when  we  quote  the  words  of  their  documents 
that  they  should  urge  this  charge.  Let  the  documents  be 
read.    I  have  no  dread  on  this  subject. 

"  The  same  means  are  resorted  to  in  quoting  the  languaee  of  the 
trustees  when  urging  the  importance  of  using  measures,  tor  inducing 
the  poor  to  have  their  children  educated.  '  On  different  occasions, 
your  remonstrants  have  suggested  to  the  Common  Council,  the  ex- 
pediency of  requiring,  hy  legal  enactment,  the  attendance  at  some 
1  public  or  other  daily  school,'  of  the  numerous  '  variant  children  who 
roam  about  our  streets  and  wharves,  begging  and  pilfering,'  and  this 
is  tortured  in  the  Catholic  petition  into  a  desire  of  'abndsng  tha 
private  liberties  of  their  fellow-citizens,' and  an  acknowledgment, 
oa  the  part  of  :hc  trustees,  '  that  they  hud  not  the  confidence  of  the 
pcor.'  " 

Yet  I  should  think,  gentlemen,  such  a  reluctance  to  attend 
their  schools  as  to  make  it  necessary  to  apply  for  a  legal 
enactment  to  procure  first  the  money  and  then  to  compel 
an  attendance,  would  show  that  they  did  want  that  confi- 
dence. I  know  they  have  not  the  confidence  of  our  body. 
Yes,  they  have  obtained  two  enactments  from  the  Common 
Council  depriving  ti  e  parents  in  time  of  need — even  when 
cold  and  starvation  have  set  in  upon  them — of  public  relief 
unless  the  children  were  sent  to  these  or  some  other  schools. 
And  I  have  seen  them  urging  ladies  in  their  public  docu- 
ments, to  obtain  their  confidence  by  soothing  words ;  and 
I  have  seen  them  urging  employers  to  make  it  the  condi- 
tion of  employment.  Yet  after  all  this  they  pretend  that  they 
have  had  the  confidence  of  the  poor.  I  do  not  say  that  they 
have  not  merited  it  according  to  iheir  views ;  but  I  do  Lot 
think  they  should  expect  all  mankind  to  submit  to  their 
viev.s  of  the  matter,  to  the  sacrifice  of  their  own. 

They  say : 

"  The  records  of  the  schools  will  demonstrate  that  the  industr'ous 
and  respectable ;  pot  lions  of  the  Ll-oring  classes  repose  entire  confi- 
dence in  the  public  school  system  and  its  manajreis." 

Then  that  portion  in  behalf  of  whom  I  stand  here  is  not 
to  be  classed  with  "tlv.  industrious  and  respectable!" 

They  then  proceed  to  another  point: 

T  he  subj?ct  of  objectionable  matter  in  the  books  used  in  the  public 
schcols,  is  so  fully  discussed  in  the  papers  r.ow  submitted  to  youi  ho- 
norable body,  that  little  more  would  seem  to  be  called  for  under  this 
head.  Finding  titer  attentions  and  long-continued  efforts  to  induce 
the  Catholic  cleigy  to  unite  in  an  expurgation  of  the  bcoks  unavail- 
ing, the  trustees  commenced  the  woik  without  them,  and  it  is  now 
neatly  completed.  If  any  thing  remains,  to  which  the  petitioners 
can  take  except  ion,  no  censure  c  an,  by  possibility,  attach  to  ycur  re- 
menstrants  ;  and  the  trustees  assert  with  confidence,  that  if  any  has 
escaped  them,  there  is  now  less  matter  cbjcctionable  to  the  Roman 
Catholics,  to  be  found  in  the  hook?  used  in  the  public  schools,  than 
in  those  of  any  other  seminary  ct  learning,  either  public  or  private, 
within  this  State." 

Now  they  could  not  adopt  a  worse  test,  for  I  defy  ycu  to 
find  a  reading  book  in  either  public  or  private  seminary, 
that  in  respect  to  Catholics  is  not  full  of  ignorance.  Not  a 
book.  For  if  it  were  clear  of  this  it  would  not  be  popular; 
and  if  they  refer  to  this  then,  they  refer  to  a  standaid  which 
we  repudiate.  Cut  it  must  be  remembered  those  people  can 
send  their  children  to  those  schcols  or  keep  them  at  heme. 
They  are  not  taxed  for  their  suppoit.  But  here  we  are. 
It  is  the  public  money  which  is  hcic  used  to  preserve  the 
black  blots  which  have  been  attempted  to  be  fixed  on  the  Ca- 
tholic name.  They  say  again,  (and  it  is  an  idea  that  will 
go  exceedingly  well  with  the  public  at  laige,  for  it  will  show 
how  amiable  and  conciliating  arc  these  gentlemen) — that 
they  have  submitted  the  books  to  us  as  though  we  have  no- 
thing to  do  but  to  maik  out  a  passage  and  it  will  disappear. 
But  are  we  to  take  the  odium  of  erasing  passages  which 
they  hold  to  be  true?  Have  they  the  right  to  make  such  an 
offer?    And  if  we  speud  the  necessary  time  in  reviewing 


10 


the  books  to  discover  passages  to  be  expurgated,  have  they 
given  Us  a  pledge  that  they  will  do  it,  or  that  they  will  not 
even  then  keep  them  in.  Have  they  given  us  a  pledge  that 
they  will  do  it  as  far  as  their  denomination  is  concerned? 
And,  then,  after  all  the  loss  of  time  which  it  would  require 
to  review  these  books,  they  can  either  remove  the  objection- 
able passages,  or  preserve  them  as  they  see  (it.  An  indi- 
vidual cannot  answer  for  a  whole  body.  They  may  make 
a  fine  offer  which  may  be  calculated  to  impose  on  the  pub- 
lic, but  if  we  put  the  question  if  they  are  able  and  if  they 
are  willing,  I  should  like  to  know  whether  they  can,  and 
will,  pass  a  law  to  show  us  that  they  are  sincere  and  that  the 
object  can  be  carried  out?  That  would  alter  the  case;  for 
we  may  correct  one  passage  to-day,  and  another  next  week; 
and  then  another  body  may  come  into  power,  and  we  may 
have  to  petition  again  and  again.  Could  they  then  do  it  if 
they  would  And  should  they  it"  they  could  ? 
They  add : 

"  In  conclusion,  your  remonstrants  would  remark,  iliat  they  lnve 
not  thought  it  expedient,  on  this  occasion  to  enter  inio  a  detailed  de- 
fence of  their  conduct,  as  regards  all  of  the  charges  preferred  hy  the 
Roman  Catholics.  Those  charges  are  before  your  honorable  body, 
and  the  trustees  will  cheerfully  suhm.t  to  any  inquiry  that  you  may 
6ec  fit  to  institute  in  relation  to  them  ;  and  even  if  it  can  be  shown 
that  your  remonstrants  are  as  1  eminently  incompetent,  to  the  super- 
intendence of  public  education'  as  the  petition  ot  the  Roman  Catho- 
lics intimates,  it  would  not,  they  respectfully  suggest,  furnish  any 
apology  for  breaking  down,  one  of  the  most  important  bulwaiks  of 
the  civd  and  religious  liberties  of  the  American  people." 

This  much  then  as  regards  this  document,  which  it  will 
be  perceived  goes  on  the  false  assumption  that  we  want  this 
money  for  a  sectarian  purpose,  because  it  was  so  referred 
to  in  the  report  of  the  Committee  of  the  Board  of  Assistant 
Aldermen,  which  denied  our  claim  ;  for  when  I  come  to 
that  it  will  be  found  that  every  proposition  in  it  goes  on  the 
assumption  that  we  wish  this  money  for  religious  purposes. 
If  we  did  it  would  be  just  to  deny  it  to  us.  But  I  will  now 
take  up  another  document,  and  I  regret  that  I  cannot  treat 
it  with  the  respect  I  would  otherwise  wish  to  do.  The  docu- 
ment from  the  Public  School  Society,  however  it  might 
have  been  led  aside,  and  however  feeble  in  its  reasoning, 
contained  nothing  I  trust  and  believe  which  was  intended 
to  be  disrespectful  to  us.  It  was  couched  in  language  at 
which  I  cannot  take  offence ;  though  it  was  weak  in  its 
principles,  its  reasoning  was  decent.  I  cannot  say  as 
much  for  this  which  is  from 

"  The  undersigned  committee,  appointed  by  the  pastors  of  the 

Methodist  Episcopal  Church  in  this  city." 
They  commence  by  observing, 
"  That  thev  h  ive  heard  with  surprise  and  alarm" — 
They  should  have  seen  our  petition  instead  of  taking 

"hearsay"  for  their  authority. 

— "  that  the  Roman  Culholics  have  renewed  their  application  to  the 
Common  Council  for  an  appropriation  from  the  Common  School 
Fund,  for  the  support,  of  the  schools  under  their  own  direction,  in 
which  they  leach,  and  propose  still  to  teach,  their  own  sectarian 
dogmas." 

Where  did  they  find  that?  Where  did  they  find  that 
statement?  I  should  like  to  know  from  the  gentlemen  who 
signed  this  remonstrance  where  they  have  their  authority 
for  such  an  assertion?  We  disclaim  it  in  the  petition 
against  which  they  remonstrate.  It  shows  then  how  much 
trust  can  be  placed  in  "hearsay,"  when  they  should  and 
might  have  examined  the  petition  against  which  they  re- 
monstrate, in  which  they  can  find  no  such  thing. 

"  In  which  tfeey  teach,  and  propose  still  to  teach,  their  own  sectari- 
an dogmas  :  not  only  to  their  own  children,  but  to  such  Pio'.cstant 
children,  as  they  may  find  means  to  set  into  these  schools." 

I  ask  these  gentlemen  asain  what  authority  they  have  for 
such  an  assertion?  I  should  like  to  see  the  argument  which 
gives  them  their  authority  to  use  language  and  to  make  a 
Sialement  so  palpably  false  as  this  is. 


"  Your  memorialists  had  hoped  that  the  clear,  co;ent,  and  unan 

swcrablc  arguments,  by  which  the  former  application  for  this  purpose 
was  resisted,  would  have  saved  the  Common  Council  from  fuitber 

importunity." 

vVc  shall  see  whether  the  arguments  were  so  clear,  co- 
gent, and  unanswerable  by  and  bye. 

"  It  was  clearly  shown,  that  the  Council  could  not  legally  make  any 
sectarian  appropriation  of  the  public  funds;  and  it  was  clearly  shown, 
that  it  would  be  utterly  destructive  of  the  whole  fcheme  of  public 
school  instruction  to  do  so,  even  if  it  could  be  legally  done.  But  it 
seems  that  neither  the  constitution  of  the  State,  nor  the  public  wel- 
fare, are  to  be  regarded,  when  they  etand  in  the  way  of  Roman  Ca- 
tholic sectarianism  and  exclusivenes6." 

Thsre  is  an  inference  for  you ;  and  a  very  unfounded 
one  it  is  too. 

"  It  rnusL  be  manifest  to  the  Common  Council,  that  if  the  Roman 
Catholic  claims  arc  granted,  all  the  other  christian  denominations 
will  urge  Uieir  claims  lor  a  similar  appropriation" — 

And  I  say  they  have  the  right  to  do  it.  I  wish  they 
would  do  it,  for  I  believe  it  would  be  better  for  the  future 
character  of  the  city,  and  for  its  fame,  whan  this  generation 
shall  have  passed  away.  If  they  did  claim  it  and  the  claim 
was  granted,  then  an  effort  would  be  made  to  raise  good 
and  pious  and  honest  men. 

 "  and  that  the  money  raised  for  education  by  a  general  tax,  will 

be  solely  applied  to  the  purposes  of  proselytism,  through  the  medium 
of  sectarian  schools.  Bui  if  this  were  done,  would  it  be  the  price  of 
peace?  or  would  it  not  throw  the  apple  of  discord  in.o  the  whole 
Christian  cominiiuiiy  ?  Should  wc  agree  in  the  division  of  the 
s)  oils  7" 

I  am  exceedingly  sorry  that  the  gentlemen  who  drew  up 
the  remonstrance  had  not  more  confidence  in  the  power  of 
their  own  religious  principle  than  to  suppose  that  it  would 
be  necessary  to  contend  violently  for  what  they  call  the 
"spoils."  We  have  submitted  to  be  deprived  of  them  for 
years  and  we  have  no*,  manifested  such  a  disposition  ;  and 
I  am  surprised  that  they  who  understand  so  much  of  the 
power  of  religion  should  attach  so  much  value  to  the  little 
money  which  is  to  be  distributed  as  to  suppose  that  it  would 
set  Christians — professing  Christians — together  by  the  ears 
in  its  distribution. 

"  Should  we  agree  in  the  division  of  the  spoils  7  Would  each 
sect  be  satisfied  with  the  portion  allotted  to  it  ?  We  venture  to  say, 
that  the  sturdy  claimants  who  now  beset  the  Council,  would  not  be 
satisfied  with  much  less  than  the  lion's  share  ;  and  we  are  sure  that 
there  are  other  Protestant  uenominations,  besides  ourselves,  wlo 
would  not  patiently  submit  to  the  exaction." 

After  what  they  have  said  by  authoiity  as  the  grounds  of 
their  opposition,  where,  instead,  they  should  have  had  history 
for  their  guide,  I  am  not  surprised  that  they  should  prophe- 
sy in  the  matter.  I  too  may  prophesy,  and  I  will  say  that 
the  "sturdy  claimants"  are  as  respectable  as  they  are,  and 
I  trust  it  will  never  be  attributable  to  us  that  we  claim  more 
than  is  our  common  right,  and  if  that  should  be  violated 
with  respect  to  the  Methodist  Episcopal  denomination,  we 
shall  be  far  from  the  ranks  of  those  who  may  be  the  vio- 
late s. 

"  But  when  all  the  Christian  sects  shall  be  satisfied  with  their  in- 
dividual share  of  the  public  fund,  what  is  to  become  of  those  children 
whose  parents  belong  to  none  of  these  sects,  and  who  cannot  consci- 
entiously allow  them  to  be  educated  in  the  peculiar  dogmas  of  any 
one  of  them  ?  The  different  committees  who,  on  a  former  occasion 
approached  your  honorable  body,  have  shown,  that  to  provide  schools 
for  these  only,  would  require  little  less  than  is  now  expended  ;  and 
it  requires  little  arithmetic  to  show  that  when  the  religious  sects 
have  taken  all,  nothing  will  remain  for  those  who  have  not  yet  been 
able  to  d<  cide,  which  of  the  Christian  denominations  :o  prefer.  It 
must  he  p'.jin  to  every  impartial  observer,  that  the  applicants  are  op- 
posed to  the  whole  system  of  public  school  instruction." 

Have  we  said  so?  And  on  what  authority  have  these 
gentlemen  the  right  to  say  it  if  we  have  not?  Where  are 
their  dtti?  And  yet  they  come  before  this  nororable  body 
and  make  such  assertions  with  the  sanction  of  their  whole 
Church! 

"  And  it  will  be  found,  that  the  uncharitable  ex<  lusiveness  of  their 
ciefd,  must  ever  be  opposed  to  all  public  inst  ictim,  which  is  not 


under  the  direction  of  their  own  priesthood.  They  rray  be  co  ci- 
emious  in  all  this  ;  but  though  it  be  no  new  claim  on  their  par  we 
cannot  yet  allow  them  to  guide  and  control  the  consciences  of  all  the 
rest  of  the  community." 

Why,  it  would  be  a  silly  and  absurd  thing  on  our  part  to 
look  for  it.  But  we  never  thought  of  it.  It  is  a  fiction 
of  these  gentlemen's  own  creation.  I  contend  we  ask 
nothing  for  the  community  but  for  ourselves,  and  I  trust  it 
will  be  granted  if  it  is  right,  and  if  we  can  be  shown  that  it 
is  not  right  we  will  abandon  it  cheerfully.  But  their  asser- 
tion is  wholly  destitute  of  foundation. 

"  We  are  sorry  that  the  reading  of  the  Bible,  in  the  public  schools, 
without  note  or  commentary,  is  offensive  to  them  ;  but  we  cannot 
allow  the  holy  Scriptures  to  be  accompanied  with  their  notes  a;id 
commentaries  

Have  we  asked  such  a  thing?  or  in  any  way  solicited 
it? 

 "  and  to  be  put  into  the  hands  of  the  children,  who  may  hereafter 

be  the  rulers  and  legislators  of  our  beloved  country  ;  because  among 
other  bad  things  taught  in  these  commentaries  is  to  be  found  the 
lawfu'nesa  of  murdering  heretics  ;  and  the  unqualified  submission 
in  all  matters  of  conscience  to  the  Roman  Catholic  Church." 

I  have  a  feeling  of  respect  for  many  of  their  denomina- 
tion but  npt  for  the  head  or  the  heart  of  those  who  drew  this 
document  up.  Here  it  states  an  unqualified  falsehood. 
Here  it  puts  forth  a  false  proposition,  and  that  proposition 
has  been  introduced  here  as  a  slander.  I  can  prove  that  it 
is  so.  And  depending  on  the  confidence  here  reposed  in 
me,  I  propose  and  pledge  myself  to  forfeit  a  thousand  dol- 
lars, to  be  appropriated  in  charities  as  this  council  may 
direct,  if  those  gentlemen  can  prove  the  truth  of  this  allega- 
tion ;  provided  they  agree  to  the  same  forfeiture  to  be  ap- 
propriated in  a  similar  manner,  if  they  fail  to  establish  its 
truth.  If  they  can  prove  that  the  Catholic  Church  sanctions, 
or  has  made  it  lawful,  to  murder  heretics,  I  will  forfeit  that 
sum.  I  feel  indignant  that  we  should  be  met,  when  we 
come  with  a  plain,  and  reasonable,  and  honest  request  to 
submit  to  the  proper  authorities,  with  slanders  such  as  that, 
and  that  in  the  name  of  religion  which  is  holy.  I  wish 
them  to  hear  what  I  say.  I  know  very  well  their  books  tell 
them  so ;  but  they  should  look  at  the  original  and  not  at 
secondary  authorities  when  they  assail  our  reputation  and 
our  rights. 

"But  if  the  principle  on  which  this  application  is  based  should  be 
admitted,  it  must  be  carried  far  beyond  the  present  purpose.  If  all 
are  to  be  released  from  taxation  when  they  cannot  conscientiously  de- 
rive any  benefit  from  the  disbursement  of  the  money  collected,  what 
will  be  done  for  the  Society  of  Friends,  and  other  sects  who  are  op- 
posed to  war  under  all  circumstances." 

With  that  I  have  nothing  to  do  and  therefore  I  will  pass 
on  to  another  point. 

"  The  Roman  Catholics  complain  that  books  have  been  introduced 
Into  the  public  schools,  which  are  injurious  to  them  as  a  body.  It  is 
allowed,  however,  that  the  passages  in  these  books,  to  which  such  re- 
ference is  made,  are  chiefly,  if  not  entirely,  historical ;  and  we  put  it 
to  the  candor  of  the  Common  Council  to  say  whether  any  history  of 
Europe,  for  the  last  ten  centuries,  could  be  written,  which  could 
either  omit  to  mention  the  Roman  Catholic  Church,  or  mention  it 
without  recording  historical  facts  unfavorable  to  that  church  ?" 

And  this  is  what  the  remonstrants  call  a  strong  issue. 
They  assert  that  no  history  could  be  written  which  could 
either  omit  to  mention  the  Roman  Catholic  Church,  or 
mention  it  without  recording  historical  facts  unfavorable  to 
the  Catholic  Church.  If  this  be  the  case  I  ask  you  whether 
as  citizens  entitled  to  the  rights  of  citizens,  we  are  to  be 
compelled  to  send  our  children  to  schools  which  cannot 
teach  our  children  history  without  blackening  us.  But 
again  they  say, 

"  We  assert  that  if  all  the  historical  facta  in  which  the  Church  of 
Rome  has  taken  a  prominent  part  could  be  taken  from  writers  of  her 
own  communion  only,  the  incidents  might  be  made,  more  objectiona- 
ble to  the  complainants,  than  any  book  to  which  they  now  object." 

No  doubt  of  it ;  and  it  only  proves  that  Catholic  hi-tori- 


ans  have  no  interest  to  conceal  what  is  the  truth.  But  I 
contend  that  there  are  pages  in  Catholic  history  brighter 
than  any  in  the  history  of  Methodism  ;  and  that  there  are 
questions  and  passages  enough  for  reading  lessons,  without 
selecting  such  as  will  lead  the  mind  of  the  Catholic  child  to 
be  ashamed  of  his  ancestors.  The  Methodist  Episcopal 
Church  is  a  respectable  church,  and  I  am  willing  to  treat 
it  with  becoming  respect;  but  it  is  a  young  chinch;  it  is 
not  so  old  as  the  Catholic  Church  and  therefore  has  fewer 
crimes;  but  I  contend  again  it  has  fewer  virtues  to  boa^t 
of.  And  in  its  career  of  a  hundred  years  it  has  done  as 
little  for  mankind  as  any  other  denomination. 

"  History  itself,  then,  must  be  falsified  for  their  accommodation  ; 
and  yet  they  complain  that  the  system  of  education  adopted  in  the 
public  schools  does  not  teach  the  sinfulness  of  lying! 

We  shall  come  to  that  presently. 

"  They  complain  that  no  religion  is  taught  in  these  school?,  and 
declare  that  any,  even  the  worst  form  of  Chi  istiaiiity,  wouid  be  better 
than  none;  and  yet  they  object  to  the  reading  of  the  Holy  Scriptures, 
which  are  the  only  foundation  of  all  true  religion.  Is  it  not  plain, 
then,  that  they  will  not  be  satisfied  with  any  thing  short  of  the  total 
abandonment  of  public  school  instruction,  or  the  appropriat  on  of 
such  portion  of  the  public  fund  as  they  may  claim,  to  their  own  sec- 
tarian purposes." 

All  the  time  they  go  on  the  false  issue.  They  charge 
that  which  we  disclaim,  and  they  reason  on  a  charge  of  their 
own  invention,  and  which  we  never  authorized.  Now  as 
I  have  a  word  to  say  about  the  Holy  Scriptures,  I  may  as 
well  say  it  at  this,  as  at  any  other  time.  Their  assumption 
is  that  because  the  Scriptures  are  read,  sufficient  precaution 
is  taken  against  infidelity.  But  I  do  not  agree  with  them 
in  that  opinion,  and  I  will  give  my  reason.  What  is  the 
reason  that  there  is  such  a  diversity  of  sects  all  claiming  the 
Holy  Scriptures  as  the  centre  from  which  they  draw  their 
respective  coutradictcry  systems?  that  book  which  ap- 
pears out  of  school  by  the  use  made  of  it,  to  be  the  source 
of  all  dissension,  when  it  does  not  come  to  the  minds  of 
children  with  such  authority  as  to  fix  on  their  minds  any 
definite  principles.  As  regards  us,  while  the  Protestants 
say  theirs  is  the  true  version  we  say  it  is  not  so.  We  treat 
the  Scriptures  reverently,  but  the  Protestant  version  of  the 
Scriptures  is  not  a  complete  copy,  and  as  it  has  been  altered 
and  changed,  we  do  not  look  upon  it  as  giving  the  whole 
writings  which  were  given  by  the  inspiration  of  the  Holy 
Spirit.  We  object  not  to  the  Holy  Scriptures,  but  to  the 
Protestant  version  without  note  or  comment.  We  think 
it  too  much  to  ask  Protestants  to  relinquish  theirs  and 
take  ours  for  the  use  of  the  pub'ic  schools.  If  we  could  ask 
you — if  we  could  propose  that  you  should  take  our  book — 
if  we  should  ask  you  to  put  out  the  Protestant  Scriptures 
and  take  ours,  with  our  note  and  comment,  do  you  think 
Protestants  would  agree  to  it?  Do  you  not  think  we  should 
be  arraigned  as  enemies  of  the  word  of  God — for  that  is  one 
charge  made  when  it  is  sought  to  denounce  us.  When  we 
speak  language  of  this  kind,  instead  of  understanding  us 
according  to  our  comprehension  of  the  subject,  they  charge 
that  we  are  enemies  to  the  Holy  Scriptures.  But  to  object 
to  their  version  is  not  to  object  to  the  Holy  Scriptures;  and 
lam  prepared  to  show  them  that  no  denomination  has  done 
so  much  in  the  true  sense  for  the  Scriptures  as  the  Catholic 
Church. 

The  remonstrants  add : 
*  "  But  this  is  not  all.  They  have  been  most  complaisantly  offered 
the  censorship  of  the  books  to  be  used  in  the  public  schools.  The 
committee  to  whom  has  been  confided  the  management  of  these 
schools  in  this  city,  offered  to  allow  the  Roman  Catholic  Bishop  to 
expurgate  from  these  Looks  any  thing  offensive  to  him." 

And  now  they  go  out  of  their  way  to  sneer  at  us,  and  you 
will  observe  the  flippancy  with  which  they  do  it. 
"  But  the  offer  was  not  accepted;  perhaps,  fer  the  eame  rcaion 


12 


that  he  declined  to  decide  on  the  admissibility  of  a  hook  of  extracts 
from  the  Bible,  which  had  been  sanctioned  by  certain  Roman  Bi- 
shops in  Ireland.  An  appeal,  it  seems,  had  gone  to  the  Pope  on  the 
subject,  and  nothing  could  be  said  or  done  in  the  matter  until  his 
Holiness  had  decided.  The  Common  Council  of  New  York  will 
therefore  find,  that  when  they  shall  have  conceded  to  the  Roman  Ca- 
tholics of  this  city  the  selection  of  books  for  the  use  of  the  public 
schools,  that  these  books  must  undergo  the  censorship  of  a  foreign 
Potentate.  We  hope  the  time  is  far  distant  when  the  citizens  of  this 
country  will  allow  any  foreign  power  to  dictate  to  them  in  matters 
relating  to  either  general  or  municipal  law." 
^  Prophets  again  ;  but  not  prophets  of  charity.  I,  sir,  say 
not  prophets  of  good-will,  for  there  is  something  more  in 
their  souls  than  the  public  welfare.  There  is  something  in 
their  insinuation  that  is  insulting,  and  a  tone  which  does 
not  show  a  mind  enlightened  and  enlarged,  and  an  appre- 
ciation of  equal  justice  and  equal  rights.  Just  their  way. 
They  hear  that  an  appeal  has  gone  to  the  Pope  ;  and  if  we 
desired  to  appeal,  also,  we  should  claim  the  right  to  do  it 
without  asking  permission  from  any  one.  Catholics  all  over 
the  world  do  it  when  their  consciences  make  it  a  duty,  but 
not  in  matters  of  this  kind.  "These  books  must  undergo 
the  censorship  of  a  foreign  Potentate !"  Now  wc  regard 
him  only  as  supreme  in  our  Church,  and  there's  an  end 
of  it. 

"  We  cannot  conclude  this  memorial  without  noticing  one  other 
ground  on  which  the  Roman  Catholics,  in  their  late  appeal  to  their 
fellow  citizens,  urged  their  sectarian  claims,  and  excused  their  con- 
scientious objections  to  the  public  schools.  Their  creed  is  dear  to 
them,  it  seems,  because  some  of  their  ancestors  have  been  martyrs  to 
their  faith.    This  was  an  unfortunate  allusion." 

Some !  "  Some  of  their  ancestors  have  been  martyrs  to 
their  faith."  I  speak  of  the  Catholics  of  Great  Britain  and 
Ireland,  and  when  you  reflect  on  the  bigotted  and  unjust 
laws  which  Great  Britain  fouuded  against  all  that  were  Ca- 
tholics, by  which  their  churches  were  wrested  from  them, 
and  a  bribe  was  offered  as  an  inducement  to  the  double 
crime  of  murder  and  of  perjury,  when  it  authorized  any 
man  to  bring  the  head  of  a  Catholic  to  the  commissioner, 
and  if  he  would  only  swear  it  was  the  head  of  a  priest  he 
got  the  same  price  as  for  the  head  of  a  wolf,  no  matter 
whose  head  it  was — and  when  legislation  of  that  kind  con- 
tinued for  centuries,  this  you  must  agree  with  me,  was  being 
martyrs  indeed.  But  when  have  the  Methodists  shown  a 
sympathy  for  those  contending  for  the  rights  of  conscience? 
When  the  Dissenters  of  England  claimed  to  be  released 
from  the  operation  of  the  "Test  and  Corporation"  act 
by  which  they  were  excluded  from  civil  office,  did  the 
Methodist  Episcopal  Church  assist  them  ?  Not  a  solitary 
petition  went  from  them  for  the  enlargement  of  their  free- 
dom. And  is  it  a  wonder  that  we  look  to  conscience  and 
admire  those  who  had  the  firmness  to  suffer  for  conscience 
sake  1  By  the  penal  laws  against  Catholics  the  doors  of 
Parliament  were  closed  against  us,  if  we  had  a  conscience, 
for  it  required  us  to  take  an  oath  which  we  did  not  believe 
to  be  true,  and  therefore  we  could  not  swear  it.  There  it 
is,  sir;  it  is  because  we  have  a  conscience,  because  we  re- 
spect it,  that  we  have  suffered,  and  while  virtue  is  admired 
on  earth,  the  fidelity  of  the  people  that  are  found  standing 
by  the  right  of  conscience  will  command  the  admiration  of 
the  world.  And  yet,  wc  are  told,  it  was  an  unfortunate  al- 
lusion ! 

"  Did  not  the  Roman  Catholics  know,  that  they  addressed  many 
of  their  fellow  citizens  who  could  not  recur  to  the  memoirs  of  their 
ancestors  without  being  reminded  of  the  revocation  of  the  Edict  of 
Nantz" — 

They  had  nothing  to  do  with  it. 

"  the  massacre  of  St.  Bartholomew's  day,  the  fires  of  Smithfield" — 
What  is  that  to  us  ?    Are  we  the  people  that  took  part  in 
that? 

— "  or  the  crusade  against  the  Waldenses  ?  We  would  willingly 
cover  these  scenes  with  the  mantle  of  charity" — 


They  had  better  not  make  the  attempt,  for  their  mantle  is 
too  narrow. 

"  and  hope  that  our  Roman  Catholic  fellow  citizens  will  in  future 
avoid  wh  never  has  a  tendency  to  revive  the  painful  rcniembiam 

Let  them  enter  upon  that  chapter  and  discuss  the  charita- 
bleness of  their  religion,  and  I  am  prepared  to  prove — I 
speak  it  with  confidence  in  the  presence  of  this  honorable 
assembly— that  the  Catholic  religion  is  more  charitable  to 
those  that  depart  from  her  pale,  than  any  other  that  ever  was 
yoked  in  unholy  alliance  with  civil  power. 

"  Your  memorialists  had  honed  that  the  intolerance  and  excluthre- 
ness  which  had  characterized  the  Roman  Catholic  Church  in  Europe, 
had  been  greatly  softened  under  thebeni»n  influei.ces  of  our  civil  in- 
stitutions. Th  ■  pertinacity  with  which  "their  sectarian  interest*  are 
new  urged,  has  dissipated  the  illusion." 

Sectarian  interests,  again,  although  we  have  disclaimed 
them. 

"  We  were  content  with  their  having  excluded  us,  « ex  cathedra,' 
from  all  claim  to  heaven,  for  we  were  sure  they  did  not  possess  the 
keys,  notwithstanding  their  confident  pretensions  ;" 

Why  they  need  not  be  uneasy  about  our  excluding  them 
from  heaven,  for  their  opinion  is  that  they  have  no  chance 
to  enter  if  they  have  any  thing  to  do  with  us;  and  therefoie 
our  excluding  them  is  of  no  avail, 

— "  nor  did  we  complain  they  would  not  allow  us  any  participation 
in  the  benefits  of  purgatory" — 

Pray  what  has  that  to  do  with  Common  School  Educa- 
tion ? 

"  fer  it  -  a  place  they  have  made  for  themselves,  and  of  which  they 
may  claim  the  exclusive  property ;" 

Well  it  is  no  matter  whether  we  believe  in  purgatory  or 
not;  it  is  no  matter  for  the  Common  Council  to  decide. — 
But  if  they  are  not  satisfied  with  our  purgatory,  and  wish  to 
go  farther,  they  may  prove  the  truth  of  the  proverb  which 
says  "they  may  go  farther  and  fare  worse." 

"  but  we  do  protest  against  any  appropriation  of  the  public  school 
fund  for  their  exclusive  benefit,  or  for  any  other  purposes  whatever. 
Assured  that  the  Common  Council  will  do  what  it  is  right  to  do  in 
the  premises,  we  are,  gentlemen,  with  great  respect,  your  most  obe- 
dient servants,  N.  BANGS, 

THOMAS  E.  BOND. 
GEORGE  PECK." 

And  now  I  have  gone  through  these  two  remonstrances,  both 
of  which,  it  will  be  seen,  refer  to  the  document  of  the  Board 
of  Assistant  Aldermen,  and  rest  their  opposition  on  the 
same  ground.  Of  that  document,  I  will  pass  over  the  intro- 
duction, but  I  may  obseive  that  its  authors,  by  what  influ- 
ence I  am  unable  to  say,  have  been  made  to  rest  their 
report  upon  an  issue  such  as  I  have  already  described,  and 
for  which  our  petition  furnishes  no  basis.  I  will  first  call 
your  attention  to  the  following  observations: — 

"  The  Petitioners  who  appeared,  also  contended  that  they  con- 
tributed, in  common  with  all  other  citizens  who  were  taxed  lor  the 
purpose,  to  the  accumulation  of  the  Common  School  Fund,  and  that 
they  were  therefore  entitled  to  a  participation  in  its  advantages  ;  that 
now  they  receive  no  benefit  from  the  fund,  inasmuch  as  the  membeis 
of  the  Catholic  Churches  could  not  conscientiously  send  their  chil- 
dren to  schools  in  which  the  Teligious  doctrines  of  their  fathers 
were  exposed  to  ridicule  or  censure.  The  truth  and  justice  of  the 
firs'  branch  of  this  proposition  

That  is,  the  payment  of  taxes. 

 "  cannot  be  questioned.    The  correctness  of  the  latter  part  of 

the  argument,  so  far  as  the  same  relates  to  books  or  exercises  of  any 
kind  in  the  Public  Schools,  reflecting  on  the  Catholic  Church  was 
den  ied  by  the  School  Society." 

Now  it  is  to  be  remembered  that  this  denial,  of  anything 
objectionable  in  the  books  of  the  Public  School  Society 
was  made  at  the  period  of  the  last  application.  I  am  per- 
suaded those  gentlemen,  if  they  had  known  there  was  any- 
thing objectionable  to  the  Catholics,  would  not  have  denied 
it.  I  am  sure  they  believed  there  was  nothing,  and  from 
this  circumstance  I  think  I  may  fairly  draw  this  inference, 
that  they  had  not  paid  that  attention  to  the  books  which  they 
should  have  done,  knowing  the  variety  of  denominations 


13 


contributing  to  this  fund  and  entitled  to  its  benefits ;  or 
kuowtng  this  and  the  feelings  and  principles  of  Catholics, 
that  the/  were  incompetent  for  the  proper  dischaiga  of  their 
responsible  duties.  It  is  only  on  one  of  these  two  grounds 
that  I  can  account  for  their  denial.  But  since  that  time 
they  have  not  only  admitted  that  the  objection  was  correct, 
but  they  have  expunged  passages  from  the  books  which  at 
the  time  of  this  denial  they  said  did  not  exist.  I  shall  pass 
on  now  to  the  two  questions  on  which  the  decision  of  the 
Committee  was  made  to  rest.    The  first  is, 

"  Have  the  Common  Council  of  this  city,  under  the  existing  laws 
relative  to  Common  Schools  in  the  city  of  New-York,  a  legal 
right  to  appropriate  any  portion  of  the  School  Fund  to  religious 
corporations  .'" 

Whether  they  have  or  not  one  thing  is  clear  and  certain, 
that  it  is  not  as  a  "  Religious  Corporation"  that  we  apply 
for  it ;  and  it  seems  to  me  that  this  should  have  struck  the 
attention  of  the  Public  School  Society,  and  the  other  gen- 
tlemen who  have  remonstrated.  We  do  not  apply  as  a  re- 
ligious b^dy — we  a^iply  in  the  identical  capacity  in  which 
we  are  taxed — as  citizens  of  the  commonwealth,  without  an 
encroachment  on  principle  or  the  violation  of  any  man's 
conscience.    But,  secondly,  they  ask — 

"  Would  the  exercise  of  such  power  be  in  accordance  with  the 
spirit  of  the  Constitution,  and  the  nature  of  our  government  ? 

Certainly  not.  If  the  Constitution  and  government  have 
determined  that  no  religious  denomination  shall  receive 
any  civil  privilege  the  exercise  of  such  power  will  not  be  in 
conformity  with  the  spirit  of  the  Constitution  and  the  nature 
of  our  government.  But  there  is  throughout  and  in  all  these 
documents  a  squeamishness,  a  false  delicacy,  a  persuasion 
that  everything  which  excludes  religion  abroad  is  right  and 
liberal.  It  would  be  unnecessary  for  me  to  follow  this  re- 
portseutence  by  sentence  if  there  had  not  been  so  muchreli- 
ance  placed  on  it  by  those  who  have  remonstrated  ;  but  as 
so  much  consequence  has  been  attached  to  it  I  will  call 
your  attention  to  some  other  passages.  They  go  on  to 
say: 

"  Private  associations  and  religious  corporations  were  excluded 
from  th°  management  of  the  fund  and  the  government  of  the  schools. 
Private  interest,  under  this  system,  could  not  appropriate  the  public 
treasure  to  private  purposes,  and  religious  zeal  could  not  divert  it  to 
the  purposes  of  proselytism." 

Why  there  is  nothing  of  the  kind  intended.  We  have 
been  driven  by  the  obligation  of  our  consciences  and  at 
our  expense,  which  we  are  poorly  able  to  bear,  to  provide 
schools,  but  they  are  not  convenient,  they  are  not  well 
ventilated,  and  are  not  well  calculated  to  give  that  develop- 
ment to  your  young  citizens  which  they  ought  to  have  ; 
why  argue,  theu,  against  religious  corporations,  and,  in 
treating  this  question,  bring  prejudices  into  view  which 
ought  to  have  no  existence  in  reality?  They  then  go  on 
to  give  the  history  and  origin  of  the  present  law  and  of  the 
Public  School  Fund,  and  it  seems  that  for  a  period  of  time, 
and  a  long  period,  the  legislature  designated  the  schools 
which  might  participate  in  this  bounty.  Each  religious 
denomination  provided  for  the  instruction  of  its  own  poor; 
they  had  provided  schools,  and  their  exertions  were  honor- 
able and  laudable.  The  legislature  granted  its  aid,  and  the 
respective  societies  were  encouraged  to  go  on  with  the  good 
work,  and  they  did  go  on  year  after  year,  and  then  there 
was  never  heard  that  disputation  which  appears  now  to  be 
so  much  dreaded.  There  was  not  then  heard  dissentinn 
between  neighbors,  or  strife  between  societies ;  everything 
went  on  peaceably,  and  why  ?  Because  the  schools  and 
the  citizens  were  not  then  charged  that  religion  was  a  for- 
bidden subject.  Nor  should  you  n6w  make  it  a  forbidden 
part  of  education,  because  on  religious  principle  alone  can 
conscience  find  a  resting-place.    It  should  be  made  known 


that  here  conscience  is  supreme — that  here  all  men  are  free 

to  choose  the  views  which  their  judgments,  with  a  sense  of 
Iheir  responsibility  to  an  eternal  weal  or  woe,  shall  orlier  for 
their  adoption.  It  should  be  taught  that  here  neighbors  hav~ 
the  right  to  differ,  and  whatever  is  the  right  of  one  must  be  re- 
cognized as  the  right  of  the  other ;  and  the  distribution  of 
this  fund  will  be  better  calculated  to  benefit  the  commu- 
nity than  it  can  be  by  these  Public  Schools  where  every 
thing  seems  to  be  at  par  except  religion,  and  that  is  below 
par  at  an  immense  discount.    They  tell  us  then  that — 

"  The  law  was  imperative  in  its  character,  and  the  several  Reli- 
gious Societies  of  the  city  possessed  a  legal  right  to  draw  their  re- 
spective portions  of  the  Fund  from  the  public  treasury,  subject  only 
to  the  restriction,  that  the  money  so  received  should  be  appropriated 
to  the  purposes  of  free  and  common  education." 

But  that  "right  to  draw"  has  been  taken  away  ;  yet  there 
13  nothing  in  the  act  by  which  the  right  to  draw  is  taken 
away  which  forbids  their  receiving  it  still,  if  in  the  judgment 
of  this  honorable  body  the  circumstances  of  the  case  entitle 
them  to  it.  It  is  not  an  impeachment — the  legislature  had 
no  intention  to  reflect  on  religious  bodies — it  had  no  in- 
tention to  black-ball  religion  in  the  public  schools  ;  and  yet 
that  view  has  been  taken  of  it  Such  was  not  the  case  ;  but 
because  circumstances  had  arisen;  and  what  were  they? 
Why  gross  abuses  had  been  practiced  by  one  of  the  reli- 
gious Societies,  and — 

"  The  funds  received  by  the  Church  were  applied  to  other  pur- 
poses than  those  contemplated  by  the  act." 

Under  some  pretext  the  favor  to  expend  the  school  monies 
had  been  conferred  on  that  society  in  a  way  that  distin- 
guished it  from  all  other  Christian  denominations  and  so- 
cieties ;  and  the  other  seeing  this  privilege  conferred  on 
one  and  not  on  the  rest,  ventured  to  remonstrate  with  the 
legislature  ;  they  intimated  that  the  partiality  to  that  Society 
of  Baptists  was  an  injustice  to  others,  and  they  remonstrat- 
ed against  the  law  conferring  exclusive  privileges  and 
against  no  other  thing  whatever.  And  yet  by  every  docu- 
ment, and  by  this  very  document,  it  seems  to  be  imagined 
that  the  legislature  did  not  revoke  special  favors  granted  to 
that  Society,  but  withdrew  its  aid  from  all  Christian 
Churches ;  so  that  all  the  men  who  remonstrated  against 
this  partial  legislation  were  found  to  have  been  themselves 
deprived  of  the  privilege  which  they  had  enjoyed,  and  this 
on  the  strength  of  their  own  remonstrances  for  quite  ano- 
ther thing.  And  the  discretion  which  the  legislature  had 
exercised  to  designate  the  schools  which  should  receive  this 
fund  was  transferred  to  this  honorable  body,  the  Council  of 
the  citv  of  New- York.  And  why  was  it  transferred?  I 
cannot  speak  positively,  but  while  it  seems  to  me  that  there 
were  abuses  shown  to  exist  by  the  remonstrants,  of  which 
they  made  complaint,  we  may  suppose  the  legislature  con- 
ceived it  difficult  for  them  to  tike  cognizance  of  the  matter, 
not  being  on  the  spot,  but  that  the  Common  Council  being 
here,  and  being  a  body  chosen  by  the  people  in  which,  con- 
sequently the  public  would  have  confidence,  was  the  best 
and  most  fitting  body  to  designate  from  time  to  time  the 
institutions  .  or  schools  which  should  be  entitled  to  receive 
those  school  monies.  This  must  have  been  their  intention, 
and  yet  this  has  been  interpreted  »s  repealing  the  law  in  or- 
der to  deprive  those  denominations  of  a  legal  right  (for 
right  they  had,  and  they  could  come  and  demand  the  mo- 
ney) and  not  a  mere  transfer  of  the  discretion  to  give  this 
money  from  the  legislature,  to  the  Common  Council  of  New- 
York.  Now  all  this,  which  is  so  plain  and  simple  has  been 
construed  by  these  gentlemen  of  the  Public  School  Society 
as  what?  As  conferring  a  monopoly  upon  them.  As  a 
law  disqualifying  all  religious  denominations  receiving 
it.  So  it  has  been  interpreted.  But  if  it  were  so,  we  ask 
not  for  the  money  on  the  ground  that  we  aro  a  religious 


14 


corporation,  but  of  public  utility,  for  the  purpose  of  giv- 
ing an  education  to  a  large  and  destitute  class  which 
otherwise  will  not  have  the  meaus  to  procure  it.  We 
ask  it  to  secure  a  public  advantage,  and  if  the  objec- 
tions a  ny  where  exist  to  which  I  have  directed  your  atten- 
tion, they  do  not  apply  to  our  case.  Gentlemen,  I  think  it 
unnecessary  to  detain  you  any  longer  on  this  subject  as  re- 
ferred to  in  this  document,  because  while  the  question  is 
composed  of  one  simple  fact,  they  are  arguing  against  dan- 
gers which  do  not  threaten  them.  But  then  they  go  on  to 
say, 

"  To  prevent  in  our  day  and  country,  the  recurrence  of  scenes  so 
abhorrent  to  every  principle  of  justice,  humanity,  and  right,  the  Con- 
stitution of  the  Lnited  States,  and  of  the  several  Slates,  have  declar- 
ed in  some  form  or  oilier,  that  there  should  be  no  establishment  of 
religion  by  law  ;  ihat  thoarTiirs  of  the  Stat!  should  be  kept  entirely 
distinct  fro.n,  and  uncounected  with  those  of  the  Church;  that  every 
'human  being  should  worship  God,  according  to  the  dictates  of  his 
own  consc  ence  ;  that  all  churches  and  religions  should  be  supported 
by  voluntary  con;rihution  ;  and  that  no  tax  should  ever  he  imposed 
for  the  benefit  of  any  denomination  of  religion,  for  any  cause,  or  un- 
der any  pretence  whttevcr." 

All  this  is  doctrine  to  which  we  subscribe  most  heartily. 
And  ivhile  we  seek  to  be  relieved  from  the  evils  under 
which  we  suffer,  we  do  not  seek  relief  to  the  detriment  of 
any  other  sect.  What .'  is  this  country  independent  of  re- 
ligion? Is  it  a  country  of  Atheism,  ur  of  an  Established 
Religion  ?  Neither  the  one  nor  the  other ;  but  a  country 
which  makes  no  law  for  religion,  but  places  the  right  of 
conscience  above  all  other  autuority — granting  equality  to 
all,  protection  to  all,  preference  to  none.  And  while  all 
these  documents  have  gone  on  the  presumption  of  prefer- 
ence, all  we  want  is  that  we  may  be  entitled  to  protection 
and  not  preference.  Wre  want  that  the  public  money  shall 
not  be  employed  to  sap  religion  in  the  minds  of  our  chil- 
dren— that  they  may  have  the  advantages  of  education  with- 
out the  intermixture  of  religious  views  with  their  common 
knowledge  which  goes  to  destroy  that  which  we  believe  to 
be  the  true  religion.  Their  is  another  feature  connected 
with  this  subject — which-  is  the  definition  given  of  a  public 
school  such  as  should  be  entitled  to  this  money.  "  If  the 
school  money"  say  these  gentlemen — and  I  must  believe 
they  are  imposed  on  by  a  statement  which  is  not  correct. 
I  believe  if  they  had  known  the  true  statement,  they  would 
not  have  published  in  their  report  such  a  statement  as  this: 

"  If  the  School  money  should  be  divided  among  the  religious  deno- 
minations generally,  us  some  have  proposed,  there  w.ll  be  nothing 
left  for  the  support  of  schools  of  a  purely  civil  character;  and  if  there 
shou  Id  be,  in  such  a  state  of  things,  any  citizen  who  could  not,  ac- 
cording to  his  opinions  of  right  and  wronsr,  conscientiously  send  his 
child  to  the  school  of  an  existing  sect,  there  would  be  no  public 
school  in  which  he  could  be  educated.  This  might,  and  probably 
would  be  the  case  with  hundreds  of  our  citizens." 

Now  let  me  for  a  moment  invito  your  attention  to  that 
part  of  the  subject  which  I  have  now  the  honor  to  submit  to 
you;  and  it  is  that  part  on  which  all  these  documents  go, 
that  religious  teaching  would  vitiate  all  claim  to  a  participa- 
tion in  this  public  fund.  A  common  education  then,  as 
understood  by  the  State,  is  a  secular  education,  and  these 
documents  contend  that  any  religious  teaching,  no  matter 
how  slight,  will  vitiate  all  claim  to  a  participation  in  this 
fund.  Now  the  Public  School  Society  in  their  reports,  have 
from  time  to  time  stated  themselves,  and,  observe,  with  a 
consciousness  that  the  jealous  eye  of  the  community  is  upon 
them — they  state,  still  under  this  restriction,  that  they  have 
imparted  religion.  Now  if  this  doctrine  be  correct,  they  are 
no  more  entitled  to  the  Common  School  Fund  than  others  ? 


for  a  portion  of  this  money,  the  State  contemplates  to  give 

the  scholar — that  is,  an  education  without  religion    Now  if 
the  child  be  brought  up  witluut  religion  what  is  he,  if  not  an 
infidel?   "Oh''  they  say,  ';  we  do  not  teach  it."  Is  it  neces- 
sary to  teach  infidelity?    It  does  not  require  the  active  pro- 
cess. To  make  an  infidel  what  is  it  necessary  to  do?  Cage 
him  up  in  a  room,  give  him  a  secular  education  from  the  age 
of  live  years  to  twenty-one,  and  I  ask  you  what  he  will  come 
out,  if  not  an  infidel  I  Whether  he  will  know  any  thing  about 
God?    And  yet  they  tell  you  that  religious  teaching  is  a  dis- 
qualification.  What  will  achild  be  then  if  you  give  him  their 
education  from  his  youth  up  to  the  age  of  twenty-one?  W  ill 
he  know  anything  of  God,  and  of  a  Divine  Redeemer?  of  a 
Trinity,  of  the  incarnation  of  the  Saviour,  and  the  redemp 
tion  of  the  world  by  the  atonement  of  Christ,  or  of  any  of 
those  grand  doctrines  which  are  the  basis  and  corner  stone  of 
our  Christianity?    And  because  we  object  to  a  system  of 
teaching  which  leads  to  practical  infidelity,  we  are  accused 
of  charging  the  Public  School  Society  with  being  infidels. 
They  furnish  the  basis  of  the  charge  ;  we  do  not  wish  to  do 
so.  Now  I  ask  you  whether  it  was  the  intention  of  the  Le- 
gislature of  New  York,  or  of  the  people  of  the  State,  that  the 
public  schools  should  be  made  precisely  such  as  the  infidels 
want?    Permit  me  to  say  when  I  use  the  term  infidel,  I 
mean  no  disrespect  to  those  that  are  so.    I  would  not  be 
one ;  but  I  respect  their  right  to  be  what  they  please.  A 
tew  days  ago  a  gentleman  who  professes  to  be  one  of  this 
class,  and  who  would  not  allow  his  children  to  be  scholars 
where  religion  is  taught  at  all,  said  he  could  send  them  to 
the  public  school,  for  there  the  education  suited  him.  What 
then  is  the  consequence?    That  while  the  public  education 
of  New  York  is  guarded  in  such  a  manner,  as  to'suit  the 
infidel,  the  children  become  so.    And  is  there  any  authori- 
ty in  this  Board,  or  of  a  legislative  body  at  Albany,  or  is 
there  any  Board  in  the  Union,  with  power  by  the  constitu- 
tion, to  exclude  religion  or  to  engraft  it?    Neither  the  one 
nor  the  other.    The  infidel  says  truly  that  there  is  no  reli- 
gion taught,  and  therefore  he  can  send  his  children  ;  and  I 
should  like  to  know  why  any  member  of  a  christian  church 
should  be  forced  to  do  violence  to  his  convictions  and  not 
be  permitted  to  enjoy  equal  advantages?    If  the  infidel  can 
send  his  children  to  these  schools  because  no  religion  is 
taught  there,  and  who  therefore  has  to  make  no  sacrifices  of 
conscience,  why  cannot  the  christian  enjoy  equal  advan- 
tages?   They  say  their  instruction  is  not  sectarianism  ; 
but  it  is ;  and  of  what  kind  ?  The  sectarianism  of  infideli- 
ty in  its  every  feature. 


But  because  it  is  of  a  negative 
kind,  and  they  do  not  admit  the  doctrines  of  any  particular 
denomination — because  they  do  not  profess  to  teach  reli- 
gion, therefore  it  is  suited  for  all!  As  a  test  therefore  of 
this  principle,  give  this  purely  secular  knowledge  to  a  young 
man,  keep  him  from  intercourse  with  the  rest  of  the  world, 
give  him  nothing  else,  and  what  sort  of  a  man  would  he  be? 
What  would  be  the  state  of  his  mind  ?  A  blank— a  perfect 
blank  as  to  religious  impressions.  But  I  contend  that  it  is 
infidelity,  and  I  hope  the  Public  School  gentlemen  hear 
what  I  say.  But  again,  I  do  not  charge  it  on  their  inten- 
tion, and  their  assertion  is  purely  gratuitous  when  they  say 
that  such  an  accusation  is  made  against  them.  Here  is  the 
observation  of  the  report  on  this  subject: 

If  religious  instruction  is  communicated,  it  is  foreign  to  the  in- 
tentions of  the  school  system,  and  should  be  instantly  abandoned.— 
Religious  instruction  is  no  part  of  a  common  school  education. 
Such  then  is  the  nature  of  that  report  which,  I  take  leav  e 
Or  is  the  doctrine  correct,  and  yet  one  must  abide  by  it  and  fo  repeat,  has  been  p/epared  by  the  gentlemen  who  drew  it 
not  another?  Again,  these  gentlemen  charge  us  with  ac-  up  as  a  committee,  under  the  impression  fixed  on  their 
cusingthem  of  teaching  infidelity,  when  taking  this  tax  they  minds  that  Catholics  want  this  money  to  promote  their  re- 
give  that  education,  which,  they  state  to  us  when  we  apply  ligion,  and  that  if  it  were  granted  to  us  others  would  wan  t 


15 


it  for  their  respective  religions  also;  and  on  this  assumption 
they  decided ;  but  against  this  false  issue  I  protest,  whether 
set  forth  in  this  report  or  in  the  two  remonstrances  before 
this  Council — one  from  the  Public  School  Society,  and  the 
other  from  the  Methodist  Episcopal  Church.  It  is  not  my 
business  to  speak  in  relation  to  the  Public  School  Society 
at  large.  Of  its  history  I  have  taken  pains  to  make  myself 
sufficiently  possessed  to  speak;  and  I  rind  that  in  its  origin, 
so  far  from  disclaiming  all  connection  with  religion,  so  far 
from  conceiving  religious  teaching  disadvantageous,  it  was 
originally  incorporated  for  the  purpose  of  supplying  the 
wants  of  the  destitute  portion  of  the  population,  and  their 
petition  for  a  charter  set  forth 

"  the  benefits  which  would  result  to  society  from  the  education  of 
such  children,  by  implanting  in  their  minds  the  principles  of  reli- 
gion and  morality." 

At  this  time  every  denomination  taught  its  own  and  re- 
ceived an  equal  portion  of  the  fund  from  the  public  authori- 
ties to  aid  them  in  their  good  work,  so  that  their  children 
were  provided  for,  and  this  society  came  to  gather  in  the 
neglected  and  the  outcast — they  came  as  gleaners,  after  the 
reapers  had  gone  through  the  field,  and  a  most  benevolent 
purpose  theirs  was;  and  their  object  I  repeat,  when  they 
applied  to  the  Legislature  was  set  forth  to  be — (for  they  did 
not  conceal  the  advantages  of  a  religious  education) — to 
produce  benefits  to  society  by  the  implanting  in  the  minds 
of  such  children  the  principles  of  religion  and  morality. — 
There  were  children  belonging  to  no  denomination,  and 
this  Society  seeing  the  benefits  which  would  result  to  socie- 
ty from  the  education  of  such  children  by  implanting  in 
their  minds  the  principles  of  religion  and  morality,  under- 
took this  benevolent  work,  and  covered  themselves  and  the 
name  of  their  Society  with  glory  by  that  undertaking.  But 
it  is  strange  that  what  then  was  so  advantageous  to  the  com- 
munity— the  implanting  in  the  minds  of  children  the  prin- 
ciples of  religion  and  morality — should  have  ceased  to  be 
so  now ;  and  that  they  or  their  successors  should  seek  to 
make  that  very  thing  a  disqualification,  and  to  turn  it 
against  all  denominations  of  christians,  and  claim  them- 
selves to  monopolise  the  fund  and  the  teaching  ou  the  prin- 
ciple that  no  religion  shall  be  imparted.  Now  has  the  Le- 
gislature seen  fit  to  alter  the  charter  so  as  to  make  religious 
teaching  a  disqualification  of  all  other  sects? 

Was  it  for  that  purpose  that  this  society,  step  by  step, 
obtained  enlarged  privileges,  by  which  not  only  the  ne- 
glected children  of  the  community,  but  those  of  others, 
came  under  their  care — that  they  obtained  grants  from 
the  public  treasury  and  the  exchequer  of  the  city,  to  an 
amount  of  many  thousands  ofdollars,  until  the  society  claims 
to  be  the  true  and  only  society,  though  existing  as  a  pri- 
vate corporation,  electing  its  own  body,  fixing  a  tax  for 
the  privilege  of  membership,  sometimes  $10,  at  others 
$20,  $25,  and  850,  any  of  which  sums  is  too  much  for  a 
poor  man  to  pay  ;  and  out  of  this  organized  body  elect- 
ing the  trustees  to*carry  on  the  work. 

I  mention  this,  not  to  blame  them,  for  they  believe  they 
are  doing  good,  but  to  show  that  even  with  men  who  are 
honorable  in  cvery-day  life,  how  much  watchfulness  and 
vigilance,  how  much  tact  and  talent,  is  used  to  grasp 
more  and  more,  till  they  absorb  all,  and  completely  de- 
prive all  others  of  any  participation  in  the  advantages  of 
controlling  this  fund. 

It  is  not  my  intention,  as  it  is  not  my  peculiar  province, 
to  enter  into  the  legal  part  of  the  argument ;  but  I  have 
to  regret  that  the  gentleman  who  did  intend  to  treat  it, 
and  to  whose  depaitment  it  belonged,  has  been  unfortu- 
nately prevented  by  the  bursting  of  a  Bmall  blood  vessel. 


But  though  my  experience  has  not  qualified  me  to  enter 
into  legal  matters,  yet,  as  a  citizen,  I  might  have  the  right 
to  express  my  opinion  on  the  monopoly  which  this  so- 
ciety claims ;  and  that  opinion  is  contrary  to  the  mono- 
poly, and  not  only  contrary  to  their  monopoly,  simply  re- 
garded as  a  monopoly,  but  because  L  believe  that  a  mo- 
nopoly of  this  description  should  be  regarded  with 
double  jealousy.  Why  1  Because  this  monopoly  is  of 
greater  weight  than  in  ordinary  cases ;  of  great  weight 
pecuniarily — for  last  year  the  fund  amounted  to  $1 15,000 
— because  the  distribution  of  that  money  gives  to  them 
a  patronage  which,  considering  the  weakness  of  human 
nature,  is  in  danger  of  being  used  disadvantageously — 
because  it  gives  to  them  privileges  of  infinitely  higher 
importance  than  any  that  can  be  estimated  by  dollars  and 

cents — the  privilege  of  stamping  their  peculiar  character 
on  the  minds  of  thousands  and  tens  of  thousands  of  our 
children.  They  ought  to  be  men,  to  discharge  the  trust 
of  such  a  monopoly,  as  pure  as  angels,  and  almost  im- 
bued with  wisdom  from  above — such  men  they  should 
be,  when  they  would  venture  to  come  and  stand  by  the 
mother's  side,  and  say,  in  effect,  "  Give  me  the  darling 
which  you  have  nourished  at  your  breast — give  it  to 
me,  a  stranger,  and  I  will  direct  its  mind.  True,  you 
are  its  parent,  but  you  are  not  fit  to  guide  its  youthful 
progress,  and  to  implant  true  principles  in  its  mind ; 
therefore,  give  it  to  me,  and  give  me  also  the  means 
wherewith  to  instruct  it."  That  is  the  position  of  that 
society;  and  they  ought  to  be  almost  more  than  men  for 
this — as  doubtless  theyare  honorable  men  in  their  proper 
places  ;  but  of  that  we  should  have  the  most  satisfactory 
evidence,  that  we  may  be  well  assured  that  they  are  fit- 
ted to  discharge  their  duties.  It  is  this  consideration 
that  brought  me  here,  as  the  first  pastor  of  a  body  of  peo- 
ple, large  and  numerous  as  they  are  known  to  be  ;  but 
poor  as  many  of  them  are,  and  exposed  to  many  hard 
ships  ;  they  have  children  with  immortal  souls, whose  con- 
dition is  involved  in  this  question,  and  if  it  is  an  im- 
propriety in  the  clerical  character,  I  would  rather  under- 
go the  reproach  than  neglect  to  advocate  their  rights,  as 
far  as  I  have  the  power,  with  my  feeble  ability. 

The  catholics  of  the  city  of  New  York  may  be  esti- 
mated as  one  fifth  of  the  population  ;  and  when  you  take 
account  of  the  class  of  children  usually  attending  the 
public  schools,  and  consider  how  many  there  are  in  this 
city  j^who  are  in  affluent  circumstances,  which  enable 
them  to  give  an  education  to  their  children,  who  do  not 
therefore  participate  in  the  teaching  of  the  public 
schools  ;  and  when  you  consider  the  numbers  not  at- 
tending any  school  at  all,  I  say,  of  those  people,  who, 
by  their  poverty,  are  the  objects  most  usually'composing 
the  number  that  require  the  assistance  of  the  common 
school  fund,  catholics  are  one  third,  if  not  more.  And 
when  1  see  this  one  third  excluded — respecting,  as  I  do, 
their  welfare  in  this  life,  as  well  as  their  welfare  in  a 
brighter  world — then  it  is  that  I  come  forward  thus  pub- 
licly, and  stand  here  to  plead  for  them.  I  conceive  we 
have  our  rights  in  question,  and  therefore,  most  respect- 
fully, I  demand  them  from  this  honorable  board. 

1  am  not  surprised  that  there  should  be  remonstrances 
against  our  claim  ;  but  I  did  hope,  in  an  age  as  en- 
lightened as  this  is,  and  among  gentlemen  of  known 
liberality  of  feeling,  that  their  opposition  would  not  have 
been  characterized  as  this  has  been.  However,  it  is  not 
to  mo  a  matter  of  surprise  ;  for  I  believe  if  some  of 
those  gentlemen  who  consider  themselves  now  as  emi- 


16 


nent  Christians,  had  lived  at  the  period  when  Lazarus 
lay  languishing  at  the  gate  of  the  rich  man,  petitioning 
for  the  crumbs  that  fell  from  the  table,  they  would  have 
6ent  their  remonstrance  against  his  petition. 

When  the  methodist  episcopal  church  6ent  its  peti- 
tion for  a  portion  of  this  fund,  some  eight  years  ago, 
then  it  was  not  unconstitutional!  Yet,  did  the  catholics 
send  in  their  remonstrance  against  it]  When  their  theo- 
logical seminaries  obtained,  (and  they  still  receive,)  the 
bounty  of  the  state,  did,  or  do,  the  catholics  complain  1 
Has  there  been  a  single  instance  of  illiberality  on  the 
part  of  catholics,  or  a  want  of  disposition  to  grant  right3 
as  universal  as  the  nature  of  man  may  require  ]  And  I 
have  been  astonished  only  at  this,  that  good  men,  with 
good  intentions,  should  prefer  to  cling  to  a  system,  and 
lo  the  money  raised  for  its  support  by  the  public  libe- 
rality— that  they  would  sooner  see  tens  of  thousands  of 
poor  children  contending  with  ignorance,  and  the  com- 
panions of  vice,  than  concede  one  iota  of  their  monopoly, 
in  order  that  others  may  enjoy  their  rights.  I  say  this, 
because  I  am  authorized  to  say  it. 

And  what  am  I  to  infer,  but,  that  they  prefer  the 
means  to  the  end.  The  end  designed,  is  to  convey 
knowledge  to  the  minds  of  our  children  ;  the  means  is 
the  public  fund  ;  and,  by  refusing  to  cause  the  slightest 
variation  in  their  system,  they  cling  to  the  means,  while 
they  leave  thousands  of  children  without  the  benefit 
which  the  6late  intended  to  confer.  They  may  pursue 
that  course,  but  the  experience  of  the  past  should  have 
taught  thern,  that  while  they  maintain  their  present  cha- 
racter, a  large  portion  of  their  fellow  citizens  have  not — 
cannot  have — confidence  in  them. 

We  have  not  had  confidence  in  them  for  years  past; 
and  that  we  have  endeavored  to  supply  an  education  to 
our  children  ourselves,  is  sufficient  proof  that  we  shall 
endeavor  to  supply  it  for  years  to  come,  rather  than 
suffer  our  children  to  be  taught  under  a  system  which 
makes  them  ashamed  of  the  religion  their  fathers 
profess. 

But  they  have  said,  that,  if  a  portion  of  this  fund  is 
given  to  catholics,  all  other  sects  will  want  it.  Then, 
let  them  have  it.  But  I  do  not  see  that  that  is  proba- 
ble ;  and  my  reason  is  this :  —  they  have  sent  in 
remonstrances  against  the  claim  of  the  catholics,  as  you 
will  see  by  a  reference  to  document,  No.  SO,  all  of  which 
go  to  prove,  that  they  are  satisfied  with  the  present 
public  school  system.  And  if  they  are  satisfied,  and 
their  children  derive  benefit  from  it,  let  them  continue 
lo  frequent  the  schools  as  they  do  now.  The  schools 
are  no  benefit  to  catholics  now;  we  have  no  confidence 
in  them ;  there  is  no  harmony  of  feeling  between  them 
and  us ;  we  have  no  confidence  that  those  civil  and 
religious  rights  that  belong  to  us,  will  be  enjoyed,  while 
the  public  school  society  retains  its  present  monopoly. 
We  do  not  receive  benefit  fiom  those  schools; — do  not, 
then,  take  from  catholics  their  portion  of  the  fund,  by 
taxation,  and  hand  it  over  to  those  who  do  not  give  them 
an  equivalent  in  return.  Let  those  who  can,  receive 
the  advantages  of  these  schools  ;  but  as  catholics  cannot, 
do  not  tie  them  to  a  system,  which  is  intended  for  the 
advantage  of  a  class  of  society  of  which  they  form 
one  third,  but  from  which  system  they  can  receive  no 
benefit. 

There  are  many  other  topics  connected  with  this  sub- 
ject, to  which  I  might  advert ;  but  I  must  apologize  for  t  e 
length  of  time  that  I  have  trespassed  on  your  patience. 
I  feel,  unaccustomed  as  I  am  to  address  such  a  body, 


and  hurried  as  was  my  preparation,  that  1  have  not  been 

able  to  present  the  subject  before  you  in  that  clear  and 
lucid  manner  that  would  make  it  interesting  ;  but  it  was 
not  with  that  view  that  I  claimed  your  attention  in  rela- 
tion to  it ;  it  was  with  far  higher  motives ;  and  1  now, 
with  confidence,  submit  it  to  your  judgment. 

Theodore  Sedgwick,  Esq.  (with  whom  was  Mr. 
Ketchum)  as  Counsel  for  the  Public  School  Society,  then 
addressed  (he  Board  and  said : — 

Mr.  President. — I  appear  here,  with  my  learned 
friend  and  associate,  Mr.  hetchum,  on  behalf  of  the  trus- 
tees of  the  public  school  society;  and  1  desire,  in  th'.j  outset, 
for  those  whom  I  represent,  as  well  as  for  myself,  to  reci- 
procate all  that  the  reverend  gentleman  has  said  of  the 
motives  of  the  parties  for  whom  we  respectively  appear. 
The  trustees  are  animated  by  no  feeling  but  a  desire  to 
promote  what  they  conceive  will  be  for  the  true  interests 
and  welfare  of  the  city  ;  in  which  they  areas  deeply  inte- 
rested as  any  men  can  be.    They  have  no  other  interest 
than  to  maintain  that  which,  in  their  judgment,  is  right 
in  itself  and  will  be  beneficial  to  the  whole  body.  Im- 
pelled by  these  motives  themselves,  they  are  willing  to 
believe  that  those  who  are  opposed  to  them  are  animated 
by  the  same  feeling.    It  is  most  especially  desirable 
that,  in  a  case  like  this,  the  petitioners  should  be  heard,  as 
they  are  being  heard,  in  the  most  solemn  manner  the 
forms  of  the  city  government  will  permit.    We  have  no 
doubt  they  will  be  fairly  heard  ;  we  are  convinced  that 
the  decision  to  which  you  may  come,  whether  for  or 
against  them,  will  be  righteously  pronounced.  The 
trustees  therefore  are  most  anxious  that  the  case  should 
be  fully  examined.    What,  sir,  is  the  precise  question 
before  us  1   The  petition,  if  1  understand  it,  asks  your 
honorable  body  for  a  civil  ordinance — for  an  ordinance  in 
regard  to  the  application  of  money.  1  shall  therefore  waive 
all  reply  to  that  portion  of  the  reverend  gentleman's 
opening  remarks  which  relate  to  the  trustees  themselves 
and  the  Methodist  congregation.    That  part  of  his  argu- 
ment has  nothing  to  do  with  the  merits  of  the  case  ;  how- 
ever pointed  and  piquant  it   may  have  been,  it  has 
nothing  to  do  with  the  point  which  you  have  to  decide. 
The  trustees  here  sink  into  nothing;  the  petitioners  also 
disappear  from  our  view  ;  and  the  real  question  remains, 
how  is  the  intellectual  condition  of  our  children  to  be 
best  promoted  ?  On  that  question  two  great  bodies  are 
at  issue  ;  and  it  is  especially  consonant  with  our  form  of 
government,  that  both  should  be  faiily  heard  ;  it  is  in  con- 
sonance with  that  principle  of  our  government,  which 
bases  it  on  harmony  and  compromise,  with  that  respect 
which  is  due  even  to  the  opinions  of  the  minority.  The 
question  is  now  being  heard,  as  it  only  best  can  be  heatd, 
and  all  will  rest  content,  no  doubt,  with  the  decision, 
whatever  that  decision  may  be. 

If  I  understand  this  application  correctly,  it  is  an  ap- 
plication to  alter,  to  modify,  or,  at  any  rate,  to  affect  the 
common  school  system  of  this  state  ;  not  only  of  the  city, 
sir,  for  it  has  a  more  extensive  bearing  ;  it  is  to  affect  the 
whole  system  of  the  state  of  New  York,  and  your  ho- 
norable body  cannot  come  to  a  proper  decision  of  this 
matter  unless  you  bring  your  minds  to  the  consideration 
of  the  origin  of  our  system  of  education,  its  establish- 
ment, development,  and  extent.  This  system,  sir, 
which  you  are  this  night  called  upon,  in  my  humble 
judgment,  not  merely  to  modify  hut  to  overthrow,  had  its 
foundation  laid  as  far  back  as  the  year  1795.  On  the  9th 
of  April,  1795,  an  act  was  passed  "Jor  the  encouragement 


17 


of  public  schools,"  and  it  is  well  worth  while  to  know 
what  was  the  opinion  of  the  legislature  which  framed 
this  act,  in  regard  to  the  kind  of  education  to  he  com- 
municated in  the  schools  which  were  to  receive  its  bounty. 
That  act  appropriated  $20,000  annually  for  the  support 
of  those  schools  in  the  different  counties  of  the  state;  in 
which  the  children  should  be  "  instructed  in  the  English 
language,  or  be  taught  English  grammar,  arithmetic, 
mathematics,  and  such  other  branches  of  knowledge  as 
are  most  useful  and  necessary  to  complete  a  good  Eng- 
lish education." 

Such  was  the  whole  extent  and  aim  of  the  system  as  it 
was  originally  founded.  It  was  to  give  a  purely  secular 
education.  This  act  was  the  germ  of  our  present  system  ; 
but  the  question  was  not  fully  understood,  nor  its  im- 
portance sufficiently  appreciated  ;  there  was  not  suffi- 
cient genial  heat  in  the  body  politic  to  develop  it ;  it 
was  not  long  acted  under,  and  soon  became  obsolete. 

In  ISO  I,  another  act  was  passed,  u  for  the  encourage- 
ment of  literature,"  by  which  four  lotteries  were  estab- 
lished to  aid  in  the  accomplishment  of  the  object;  a  pure 
object,  deriving  its  support  from  a  most  impure  source, 
for  the  proceeds  of  these  lotteries  were  to  be  applied  to 
the  support  of  the  common  school  in  such  way  as  the 
legislature  might  direct.  i 

In  1805,  the  first  step  was  taken  to  establish  the  system 
on  a  firm  permanent  foundation,  and  then  (2d  April)  the 
proceeds  of  the  first  500,000  acres  of  the  public  lands  which 
should  be  sold  were  setapart,  to  beinvestedasapermanent 
fund  for  the  support  of  common  schools  for  the  educa- 
tion of  the  children  of  New  York.  This  fund  was  after- 
wards increased,  during  the  years  180S,  '10,  and  '11,  by 
the  receipt  of  the  surplus  fees  of  the  clerk  of  the  supreme 
court,  by  the  proceeds  of  certain  stock  in  the  Merchants' 
Bank  in  this  city,  and  the  sums  then  flowing  from  lot- 
teries, lands,  fees,  and  banks,  were  invested,  from  time 
to  time,  by  the  comptroller  for  the  same  object.  In  1811, 
the  fund  was  found  to  be  of  a  considerable  amount,  and 
commissioners  were  appointed  to  report  to  the  legis- 
lature, at  the  next  session,  how  this  fund  could  be  best 
appropriated,  and  also  to  prepare  a  system  for  the  orga- 
nization and  establishment  of  common  schools.  They 
accordingly  reported,  and,  in  IS  12,  (10th  June,)  the  first 
general  act  was  passed,  which  laid  the  foundation,  broad 
and  deep,  of  the  present  system. 

That  act  directed,  in  general  terms,  that,  as  soon  as 
the  revenue  from  the  school  fund  should  amount  to 
$50,000,  it  should  be  appropriated  among  the  different 
counties  of  the  state  ;  commissioners  and  inspectors 
were  to  be  elected  by  the  towns,  to  expend  the  amount 
awarded  to  them;  and  trustees  of  the  school  districts 
were  also  chosen  to  carry  out  the  scheme. 

But  in  the  first  act  a  provision  was  inserted — and  it  is 
important  in  regard  to  the  whole  common  school  system 
to  bear  it  in  mind — that  the  towns  and  counties  were 
not  compelled  to  contribute  to  the  expense  of  education 
at  all.  Such  only  as  voluntarily  accepted  the  system 
and  taxed  themselves  to  a  similar  amount,  were  permitted 
to  receive  any  portion  of  the  fund.  But  if  they  chose  to 
disregard  the  matter  altogether,  they  were  at  liberty  so 
to  do.  The  next  year,  this  error — for  so  it  seems  the  le- 
gislature deemed  it — was  corrected.  The  town3  and 
counties  were  compelled  to  adopt  the  system,  and  the 
supervisors  were  directed  to  tax  the  towns  to  the  amount 
of  the  proportion  allotted  to  them  from  the  school  fund. 
They  did  then  what  they  had  not  defore  dared  to  do. — 
They  taxed  the  people  directly  for  the  purposes  of  edu- 


cation. That  act  was  passed  in  1814.  The  system  thus 
established  was,  as  your  honors  well  know,  incorporated 
in  the  Revised  Statutes,  which,  in  1S30,  were  made 
the  code  of  our  state;  and  that  beautiful  fabric  still  re- 
mains as  it  was  then  fashioned — so  simple,  and  yet  so 
beautiful,  I  should  be  loath  to  see  a  hand  laid  upon  it. 

The  functions  of  the  original  superintendent  of  com- 
mon schools  have  been  merged  in  the  secretary  of  state, 
but  in  other  respects  no  alteration  has  been  made.  The 
annual  revenue  of  the  fund  is  divided  among  the  counties 
who  are  compelled  to  raise  by  taxation,  a  sum  equal  to 
their  respective  shares  ;  commissioners  were  elected, 
and  by  them  the  money  is  appportioned  among  the 
towns,  and  these,  again,  are  subdivided  into  districts,  and 
trustees  elected  to  take  charge  of  the  school  houses,  and 
to  have  the  immediate  supervision  of  the  schools. 

These  trustees,  at  stated  periods,  (once  a  year,)  make 
their  report  to  the  commissioners,  the  commissioners  to 
the  county  clerks,  and  they,  to  the  superintendent,  now 
secretary  of  stale;  and  thus,  is  one  harmonious  system 
established  throughout  the  state.  In  the  last  report,  of 
1S40,  it  is  stated,  that  but  one  town  in  the  state  has  not 
reported  during  the  last  year;  at  the  establishment  of 
the  system,  there  was  great  diversity  of  opinion  on  the 
subject — there  was  great  languor  and  indifference  among 
the  people,  and  it  was  long  before  the  towns  generally 
came  to  take  an  interest  in  it;  it  was  long  before  the  trus- 
tees made  regular  reports  of  the  matters  under  their 
charge ;  but,  as  the  last  report  of  the  supeiintendent  shows, 
there  has  been  a  great  progress  of  opinion  ;  every  town, 
except  one,  has  made  its  report  during  the  last  year, 
showing  the  condition  of  its  schools.  In  the  year  1795, 
$20,000  were  appropriated  to  the  common  school 
system  ;  in  1845,  it  is  calculated  by  the  report  of  the  Super- 
intendent, that  the  capital  ol  the  Common  School  t  und  will 
amount  to  five  millions  of  dollars.  These  facts  alone,  then, 
show  the  certain  progress  made,  not  only  in  the  means  for 
the  accomplishment  r,f  the  object  of  the  system,  but  in  the 
minds  and  hearts  of  the  people  themselves.  Five  millions  of 
dollars  then  will  be  the  capital,  and  two  millions  will  be  an- 
nually expended  for  the  education  of  the  citizens  of  the 
State  of  New  York! — K',7  6  districts  have  reported,  and 
557,229  children  are  actually  under  instruction  in  these 
schools!  Now  I  suppose,  having  reference  to  Ihe  magni- 
tude of  the  State  and  to  its  population  and  resources,  it 
may  most  safely  be  affirmed  there  is  no  such  system  for  the 
education  of  the  poorer  classes  of  any  country  in  the  uni- 
verse— no  system  of  this  grandeur,  by  which  the  people  take 
care  that  the  people  shall  be  educated — made  competent  to 
discharge  those  duties,  without  which  the  form  and  fabric  of 
our  government  are  a  mockery.  This  is  the  general  system 
throughout  the  State.  Now  let  us  examine  more  particu- 
larly those  features  which  relate  ti  this  city,  with  which  at 
this  time  we  are  more  immediately  concerned.  In  1813, 
the  first  act  to  which  I  have  alluded,  extended  its  provisions 
t)  this  city;  and  it  is  somewhat  remarkable  that  ti  e  Lrgis 
lature  then  drew  a  line  between  the  population  of  this  city 
and  of  the  country,  and  required  the  city  to  levy  a  tax  for 
this  object,  before  it  required  the  country  population  to  do 
so.  In  1S14,  as  I  have  already  said,  the  system  was  applied 
to  the  entire  State,  and  all  counties  were  required  to  raise 
by  taxation  an  amount  equal  to  their  portion  of  the  fund. 
By  that  act,  certain  schools  were  specified  as  ihe  tecipicnts 
of  lhi>  Common  School  Fund,  and  Fuch  other  incorporated 
religious  societies  as  then  supported  chaiity  schools.  In 
1824,  this  act  wa3  repealed,  and  the  Common  Council  was 
authorized,  oace  in  three  years,  to  designate  the  ir\stitutiocs 


18 


and  schools  which  should  be  entitled  to  receive  the  school 
monies.  Alter  the  passage  of  this  act,  a  petition  from  a 
great  portion  of  the  property  owners  of  this  city  was  pre- 
sented to  the  Legislature,  praying  leave  to  raise  by  taxation 
on  this  city  and  county,  a  further  sum,  besides  that  already 
required  of  them,  for  the  sume  purpose  of  educating-  the 
destitute  poor.  I  claim  no  peculiar  merit  for  them  in  so 
doing,  but  they  are  at  least  entitled  to  the  credit,  such  as  it 
is,  of  comprehending  their  own  interest  They  saw  that 
the  education  of  the  poor  was  essential  to  their  own  wel- 
fare. Perhaps  this  is  the  only  instance  on  record  of  citi- 
zens soliciting  the  favor  of  being  taxed.  It  was  granted — 
and  the  Corporation  was  then  authorized  to  impose  a  spe- 
cial tax  on  this  city  for  the  support  of  schools.  And  what 
has  since  been  the  developement  of  this  system  in  this  city? 
In  the  year  1833,  $34,UU0  were  received  from  the  School 
Fund — $34, 0U0,  or  an  equal  amount  to  that  received,  were 
raised  under  the  compulsory  clause  of  the  school  system 
acts,  and  $73,000  in  addition  were  raised  by  thi3  volun- 
tary taxation ;  so  that  the  annual  revenue  of  the  fund  in 
controversy,  exceeds  $140,000 — no  trifling  sum  to  be  dis- 
tributed by  this  municipal  body.  Now,  if  you  please,  what 
is  the  tendency  of  this  system  ?  its  practical  effect — its 
mode  of  tuition — the  nature  of  its  instruction?  In  the  first 
place,  there  is  no  law  on  the  subject.  The  reverend  gentle- 
man has  said  that  if  the  prayer  were  granted,  they  would 
conform  to  the  provisions  of  the  law — he  was  willing  that 
the  body  whiih  he  represents  should  apply  the  fund  as  the 
law  directs.  But  the  law  makes  no  provision  in  the  mat- 
ter. If  the  Koran  was  taught  in  a  common  school,  the  law 
would  nut  interfere — the  law  would  not  shut  the  school ;  it 
must  be  got  at  in  some  other  way.  This,  the  very  essence 
of  the  matter,  was  left,  and  doubtless  intentionally  left  to 
the  people  of  the  State  and  to  this  honorable  body:  through- 
out the  State  the  people  elect  their  officers  for  the  manage- 
ment of  these  schools ;  here  it  is  done  through  this  body, 
who  are  elected  by  the  people.  You  then,  who  are  the  re- 
presentatives of  the  people,  decide  to  whom  this  fund  shall 
be  distributed.  Now  at  the  outset  the  question  may  arise, 
and  a  great  portion  of  the  remarks  of  the  revereud  gentle- 
man compel  a  notice  of  it — whether  the  education  of  the 
people  is  a  proper  subject  of  governmental  concern.  If  I 
understand  the  argument  of  the  reverend  gentlemau,  it 
tends  to  the  negative  of  this  proposition.  W  hen  he  says 
the  trustees  of  our  public  schools  "lake  the  children  from 
their  mother,  deprive  the  parents  of  their  offspring"  I  un- 
derstand him  to  say — and  it  is  not  the  first  time  by  any 
means  that  this  question  has  been  mooted — that  the  State  has 
no  right  to  interfere— that  the  matter  should  be  left  to  the  pa- 
rent— that  the  State  should  not  interpose  between  the  father 
and  his  child.  If  that  argument  is  sound,  then  the  whole 
system  should  be  abolished— if  the  State  ought  not  to  inter- 
fere at  all,  taxation  for  this  object  must  be  done  awav  with, 
and  no  further  sums  should  be  levied,  and  the  school  fund, 
guaranteed  by  the  constitution,  should  go  back  into  the  ge- 
neral coffers.  But,  right  or  wrong,  such  is  not  the  under- 
standing of  the  people  of  this  State.  They  have  said  that 
there  is  a  portion  of  every  population  that  does  not  suffi- 
ciently appreciate  the  advantages  of  education,  voluntarily 
to  secure  them ;  they  know,  or  think  that  they  know  by  ex- 
perience, that  such  parents,  unless  compelled,  will  not  pro- 
perly attend  to  the  interests  of  the  child,  and  therefore  the 
people  of  the  State  say,  "we  will  interfere — no  man  shall 
come  up  to  his  majority  and  claim  the  right  of  voting  with- 
out that  education,  which  shall  prepare  him,  at  !ea.-t  in  pait, 
to  exercise  that  right.    He  shall  have  at  least  a  portion  of 


that  instruction,  without  which  he  is  a  firebrand  in  the 

midst  of  a  magazine."  This  matter,  therefore,  no  longer 
admit*  of  argument.  The  question  to  be  argued  here  is 
not  whether  the  lather  and  the  mother  are  the  beat  judges  of 
the  interests  of  the  child  in  this  point  of  view — if  so,  we  are 
cast  on  the  sea  of  abstract  discussion.  We  must  assume 
something:  we  must  take  something  for  granted.  The 
postulate  in  this  case  is,  "the  State  requires  its  children  to 
have  some  kind  of  education."  What  kind  then  shall  that 
be?  Is  the  present  system  the  best,  or  shall  we  have  some- 
thing new,  and  repudiate  that,  which  the  experience  of  thirty 
years  ha3  sanctioned  and  approved?  There  are  three  kinds 
of  education  which  the  State  might  give.  There  is  the 
purely  secular  education,  such  as  the  first  act,  to  which  I 
have  referred,  contemplates;  such  as  the  master  gives  to  an 
apprentice.  This  secular  education  may  be  better  or 
worse,  more  or  less  extensive.  The  child  may  be  taught 
to  read  and  write,  and  may  be  given  what  is  called  by  the 
State  "a  purely  English  education."  There  is  another 
kind  of  instruction  the  infant  may  be  imbued  with — those 
fundamental  principles  of  morals,  about  which  there  is  nodis- 
pute — at  least  not  in  this  country,  nor  in  any  part  of  Chris- 
tendom— about  which  the  body  which  the  reverend  gentle- 
man represents,  and  we  Protestants  all  equally  agree;  as  to 
the  moral  code  of  Christianity  there  is  no  material  differ- 
ence of  opinion  among  us.  But,  beyond  that,  there  is  still 
another  branch  of  instiuction  which  is  properly  called  reli* 
gious,  and  it  is  because  those  two  phrases — "  religious"  and 
"moral" — have  been  used  occasionally  without  an  accurate 
apprehension  of  their  signification,  that  the  documents  of 
the  trustees  have  been  misconstrued.  But  when  the  term 
"  moral"  education  is  used,  it  only  means  that  education 
which  instructs  the  children  in  those  fundamental  tenets  of 
duty  which  are  the  basis  of  all  religion;  it  does  not  mean 
that  sectarian  or  dogmatic  teaching  which  constitutes  what 
is  more  properly  termed  a  "religious''  education.  The 
common  schools  have  meant  from  the  brgir  niug  to  teach 
the  children  the  great  moral  precepts — "Thou  shalt  not 
steal — thou  shalt  not  lie" — and  others;  but  they  have  not  in- 
tended to  teach  either  Episcopalianism,  or  Methodism,  Ca- 
tholicism, or  Unitarianism,  for  from  that  controversial 
leaning  they  have  intended — and  if  I  understand  the  system, 
the  Legislature  intended — that  the  schools  should  keep  aloof. 
It  never  can  be  imparted  without  involving  the  parents 
and  the  children  in  bittej  disputes  endless  in  their  nature, 
whose  inevitable  effect  would  be  to  exasperate  the  minds  of 
the  parents  towards  each  other,  and  be  either  useless,  or  po- 
sitively injurious  to  the  children.  A  religious  education, 
properly  so  called,  no  man  can  undervalue;  if  a  moral 
education  is  given,  the  other  invaluable  instruction  must  be 
superadded ;  but  the  State  does  net  intend  to  give  it.  The 
State  intends  to  give  a  "secular"  and  moral,  but  not  a  reli- 
gious education — the  State  does  not  intend  to  give  a  secta- 
rian education,  and  that  is  precisely  what,  if  I  apprehend 
correctly,  the  reverend  gentleman  does  intend  to  give. — 
Such  as  I  have  described  is  the  character  of  the  instiuction 
in  this  State;  and  that  of  the  city  is  in  haimony  with  it. — 
It  is  a  system,  I  repeat,  by  which  it  is  intended  to  confer  a 
secular  and  moral  education.  It  has  been  thought  that  for 
the  purposes  of  moral  teaching,  the  Bible  contains  that  in 
which  all  sects  can  agree;  from  which  no  sect  can  dissent. 
Now  what  is  the  praver  of  the  petitioners?  I  suppose  it  is 
haidlv  necessary  in  this  age  and  in  this  country,  to  deny 
any  feeling  of  hostility  to  Catholics.  If  there  is  one  feeling 
that  has  spread  more  than  another  throughout  this  country, 
it  is  one  of  religious  toleration — it  is  that  this  country  was 


19 


designed  and  was  provided  as  an  asylum  for  the  oppressed 
oi' other  countries.  It  has  been  so  most  foitunately  tor  the 
Catholics  of  Ireland,  and  the  poor  peasant  oi  the  Rhine. — 
There  is  no  feeling  of  hostility  to  the  Catholic  as  such;  ttill 
less  to  the  foreigner  as  such.  There  was  a  time  when  Ca- 
tholicism and  Christianity  went  hand  in  hand,  when  their 
fellowship  was  broken  by*no  jar  nor  schism;  when  all  were 
Catholics.  One  of  the  best  men  who  has  ever  adorned  this 
country,  was  Bishop  Cheverus,  of  Boston,  one  of  the  few 
who  achieved  a  wide  spread  reputation  by  mere  acts  of  pri- 
vate benevolence.  And  while  we  can  turn  to  such  men  as 
adorning  the  Catholic  Church,  it  cannot  be  that  there  is  any 
hostility  to  them,  as  a  sect;  if  there  be,  most  assuredly  I  am 
not  its  mouthpiece;  and  while  I  repudiate  all  feeling  of  hos- 
tility to  the  petitioners,  this  I  will  further  say,  I  would  not 
for  a  moment  lend  my  feeble  aid  to  the  public  school  sys- 
tem, if  it  were  actuated  or  marked  by  intolerance  or  hostili- 
ty to  Catholics,  if  it  did  not  maintain  a  perfect  impartiality 
among  all  sects.  I  conceive  that  this  is  not  a  subject  to 
argue  as  counsel,  from  a  brief :  unloss  I  were  satisfied 
that  the  compliance  with  this  petition  would  be  dangerous 
to  the  whole  system,  as  a  lawyer,  I  would  not  say  a  syllable 
in  the  matter — I  would  never  on  such  a  subject  argue 
against  my  deliberate  couviction  as  a  counsel  for  hire. — 
The  professional  man  must  here  be  merged  in  the  citizen, 
and  it  is  only  as  such  that  I  desire  to  be  heard. 

If  this  matter,  however,  is  properly  considered,  there  can 
be  no  pretence  for  making  it  hinge  on  Catholicism  or  for 
awakening  the  violence  of  religious  schisms ;  although  a 
portion  of  the  Catholics,  at  this  moment,  are  the  most  pro- 
minent petitioners  of  the  most  numerous  body  which  de- 
mand a  change  of  the  system,  yet  in  point  of  fact  they  are 
not  more  affected  by  it  than  others.  The  other  denomina- 
tions say,  "We  are  satisfied  with  the  present  order  of 
things  and  with  the  education  conferred,  but  if  you  give  a 
portion  of  these  funds  to  one  sect  to  be  administered  by  their 
hands,  wc  shall  claim  our  share  also."  So  long  as  you  give 
a  secular  education  combined  with  moral  instruction 
alone,  and  steer  entirely  clear  of  all  doctrinal  or  sectarian 
principles  all  are  satisfied,  but  the  moment  an  apprehension 
exi.».ts  that  a  part  of  this  great  fund  goes  to  increase  the 
numbers  and  the  power  of  one  particular  sect,  that  moment 
the  others  will  eagerly  strive  to  check  what  they  believe  a 
pernicious  influence,  and  to  check  it  in  the  same  wav. 
At  present  these  sects  tacitly  consent  to  the  system  pursued 
by  the  trustees,  because  the  Common  School  is  now  lite- 
rally a  "  Common  School,"  a  neutral  institution ;  but  give 
a  portion  of  this  fund  to  promote  the  interests  of  that  sect 
and  others  will  that  instant  press  in  demanding  their  equal 
share.  Those  demands  you  will  not  be  able  to  resist.  I 
am  not  speaking  of  any  speculative  matter;  you  have,  Sir, 
petitions  couched  in  these  very  terms,  and  if  you  answer 
the  Catholic  in  the  affirmative,  you  cannot  give  a  negative 
to  the  other  claimants.  Consider  then  for  a  moment  the 
effect  of  this.  After  all  the  sects  have  divided  the  fund 
among  themselves  what  is  to  become  of  the  children  of  that 
large  class  who  are  of  no  sect,  or  at  least  who  wish  no  sec- 
tar  ian  education  to  be  given  s  Are  they  to  be  left  utterly 
destitute?  The  conclusion  is  irresistible,  that  this  is  a  di- 
rect attempt  to  subvert  the  whole  Common  School  system. 
The  grounds  taken  by  the  petitioners  are  tw  o-fold.  If  I  un- 
derstand them  correctly,  they  are  totally  at  variance  and 
incompatible  with  each  other.  One  is,  that  the  dogmas  of 
religion,  or  relig  ion  pioperly  so  called,  is  net  taught  in 
these  schools,  but  that  what  the  reverend  gentleman  calls  the 
sectarianism  of  infidelity  is  propagated  in  them.  Another 
objection  to  the  system  is,  that  the  children  are  made  Pro- 


testants :  in  other  words,  that  religion  is  taught  to  them.  I 
leave  it  to  the  reverend  gentleman  to  reconcile  these  propo- 
sitions for  the  purposes  of  his  argument — for  the  purposes 
of  mine  it  is  sufficient  that  neither  of  them  is  tenable. 
One  is  false  in  point  of  reasoning,  and  the  other  in  point 
of  fact. 

And  now  we  approach  the  citadel,  the  centre  of  the  dis- 
cussion. Now  as  to  this  matter  the  petitioners  ask  your 
honors  to  pass  a  civil  ordinance;  the  first  question  that 
suggests  itself  is,  have  your  honors  Ihe  power  to  make  the 
appropriation  asked  for  t  The  Committee  of  the  Board  of 
Assistants  have  already  intimated  their  opinion  that  no  such 
power  rests  here  ;  that  this  application,  if  made  at  all,  should 
be  presented  *.o  the  legislature :  and  the  Board  oi'  Assi  stants 
have  intimated  the  further  opinion  that  the  legislature  has  al- 
ready passed  upon  this  very  question.  That  the  Board  of  As- 
sistants are  right  there  is,  I  venture  to  affirm,  no  doubt.  The 
act  of  1813,by  which  the  legislature  undertook  to  direct  how 
the  School  Fund  should  be  applied  in  this  city,  apportioned 
it  among  the  trustees  of  the  Free  School  Society,  now  the 
Public  School  Society,  the  Orphan  Asylum  Society,  the 
Economical  School,  the  African  Free  School,  and  such  in- 
corporated religious  Societies  as  now  support  or  thcreal'ter 
shall  establish  Charity  Schools  or  may  apply  for  the  same. 
That  act,  beyond  any  question,  gave  this  body  power  to 
make  the  appropriation  now  asked  for.  The  churches 
acted  under  it  and  claimed  their  share  of  the  School  Fund. 
On  the  8th  of  February,  lh22,  an  act  was  passed  for  the  re- 
lief of  the  Bethel  Baptist  Chuich  of  the  city  of  New-York. 
That  congregation  went  begging  to  Albany,  as  other  con- 
gregations will  go  if  this  wretched  system  shall  be  intro- 
duced, and  asked  leave  to  apply  that  part  of  their  share 
which  was  not  wanted  for  teachers  to  the  erection  of  school- 
houses.  The  act  was  passed  and  its  natural  consequences 
ensued.  The  teachers  were  underpaid  and  false  receipts 
were  used  in  order  to  facilitate  and  conceal  the  increase  of 
the  property  of  the  corporation.  Here  a  gross  fraud  was 
perpetrated — that  fraud  was  discovered,  and  it  led  to  a 
change  in  the  system.  The  Nineteenth  Annual  Report  of 
the  School  Society  contains  all  the  documents  and  proofs 
on  the  subject.  It  is  sufficient  for  our  present  purpose  tha 
the  fact  of  the  deception  was  proved  to  the  satisfaction  of 
the  Common  Council  of  the  city,  and  of  the  legisla- 
ture. The  Common  Council  took  the  matter  up  and  ad- 
dressed a  memorial  signed  by  Mr.  Paulding,  then  Mayor, 
to  the  legislature,  for  the  repeal  of  the  act  under  which  the 
fund  was  appropriated  to  religious  societies  in  the  city. 
They  say — 

"The  question  for  the  determination  of  the  Legislatute,  at  this 
time,  is  presumed  to  be,  whether  the  Free  School  Society  shall  be 
suff.rcd  to  continue  its  operations  and  have  the  principal  manage- 
ment of  gratuitous  education  in  the  city  of  New-York,  or  whether 
the  religious  societies  shall  take  it  out  of  its  hands,  and  the  poor  be 
educated  in  sectarian  schools. 

"  If  religious  societies  are  to  he  the  only  participators  of  the  por- 
tion of  the'school  fund  lor  the  city  of  NewrTi  oik,  a  spirit,  of  rivalry 
will,  it  is  thought,  be  excited  between  different  sects,  which  will  go 
to  disturb  the  harmony  of  society  and  which  will  early  infuse  strong 
prejudices  in  the  minds  of  Children  taujrht  in  the  different  schools. 
Moreover  your  memorialists  would  suggest  to  your  honorable  body 
whether  the  school  fund  of  ihe  State  is  not  purely  of  a  civil  character 
designed  for  a  civil  purpose  ;  and  whether,  therefore,  the  enh  listing 
of  it  to  religious  or  ecch  siast  cal  bodies  is  not  a  violation  of  an  ele- 
mentary principle  in  the  politics  of  the  Stale  and  country." — \0th 
Rep.  of  Free  School  Sccielii. 

Upon  that  memorial  a  Committee  of  the  Assembly  re- 
poitcd  a  Bill  to  repeal  the  Act  in  question.  That  Report 
contains  the  following  passage  : 

'•  There  is,  however,  one  ffeneial  principle  connected  with  this- 
subject,  of  no  ordimiy  magnitude,  to  which  the  Committee  would 
beg  leave  to  call  ihe  attention  of  tl.e  house. 


20 


"  It  appears  tint  the  city  of  New- York  is  the  only  part  of  the  State 
where  the  School  Fund  is  at  all  subject  lo  the  control  of  religious 
societies.  This  fund  is  considered  by  your  Committee  purely  of  a 
evil  character,  and  therefore  it  never  ought,  in  their  opinio. 1,  lo  puss 
into  the  hands  of  ;iny  corporation  or  set  if  men,  who  are  not  directly 
amenable  to  the  constituted  civil  authorities  of  the  government,  and 
bound  to  report  their  proceedings  to  the  public.  Your  Committee 
forbear  in  this  place  lo  enter  fully  into  this  branch  of  the  eubj.-ci,  but 
they  respectfully  submit  whether  it  is  not  a  violation  of  a  fundamen- 
tal principle  of  our  legislation,  lo  allow  funds  of  the  Slate,  raised  by 
a  tax  on  the  citizens,  designed  for  civil  purposes,  to  be  subject  to  lire 
control  of  any  religious  corporation.' — lyi/i  .Annual  Jiep.  oj  Free 
School  Society,  p.  51. 

Upon  that  memorial  and  report,  both  holding  this  lan- 
guage, the  act  was  passed  under  which  your  honors  are  now 
called  upon  to  grant  the  claim  of  the  petitioners  on  whose 
behalf  the  reverend  gentleman  has  just  addressed  you.  On 
the  19th  of  November,  1824,  this  law  was  enacted,  entitled 
"An  act  relating  to  Common  Schools  in  the  City  of  New- 
York,"  by  which  it  is  provided  that — 

"  The  Institutions  or  Schools  which  shall  be  entitled  to  receive  the 
uchool  monies,  shall,  from  time  to  time,  and  at  least  once  in  three 
years,  be  designated  by  the  Corporation  of  this  city  in  Common 
Council  convened." 

Now  I  ask  your  honor,  since  statutes  were  first  formed 
was  ever  a  Church  designated  in  legal  language  as  an  "insti- 
tution" or  a  "School?"  That  act  then,  coupled  with  that 
memorial  and  report  on  which  it  was  based,  compels  the 
conviction  that  it  was  the  intention  of  the  legislature — if 
my  mind  is  not  clouded  by  the  views  I  have  taken  on  the 
subject  it  is  as  clear  as  the  sun  at  noon-day  that  the  legis- 
lature intended,  that  this  fund  should  be  divided  amongst 
"  Institutions  and  Schools,"  and  to  be  appropriated  to  the 
purposes  of  education — of  civil,  secular  education,  not  of 
religious  sectarian  instruction.  We  are  now  then  after 
the  lapse  of  only  fifteen  years,  arguing  before  this  honor- 
able body  the  very  question  which  was  argued  and  decided 
against  these  petitioners,  and  that  not  abstruse  or  compli- 
cated, but  one  of  the  simplest 'in  the  very  primer  book  of 
liberty.  The  only  question  which  cau  by  possibility  be 
raised  on  this  branch  of  the  case  is  the  change  in  the  phrase- 
ology adopted  in  the  Revised  Statutes,  vol.  i.  p.  483,  (2d. 
ed.)  where  instead  of  the  words  "Institutions  or  Schools," 
the  words  "  Societies  or  Schools"  are  substituted.  That 
certainly  is  not  the  language  of  the  act  of  1824 — it  is  not 
as  clear  language  as  that  used  in  the  original  act,  but  it  is 
very  apparent  that  the  revisers  changed  the  language  with- 
out intending  to  chancing  the  purport  of  the  provision. 
Your  honors  are  well  aware  that  where  any  change  of  our 
Statute  Law  was  considered  necessary  by  the  revisors,  where 
an  old  enactment  was  altered  or  a  new  provision  was  in- 
troduced, it  is  uniformly  accompanied  by  a  note  to  show 
the  reason  for  the  alteration.  Rut  there  is  no  note  nor 
comment  whatever  on  this  passage.  Your  honors  are 
equally  well  aware  that  the  revisers  did  for  the  simplification, 
and  as  they  no  doubt  considered  the  improvement,  of  the 
law,  sometimes  change  the  phraseology  of  our  Statutes,  to 
make  it  more  elegant  or  precise;  that  is  the  reason  why 
they  here  have  substituted  the  word  "Societies"  for  "In.'ti- 
tutions."  It  is  not  to  be  supposed  that  they  could  delibe- 
rately revert  to  the  exploded  enactment,  which  existed  prior 
to  1S24,  without  note  or  comment,  explanation  or  reason, 
to  show  why  they  had  re-established  a  system  once  pro- 
nounced pernicious.  As  a  matter  of  law,  therefore,  I  af- 
firm without  hesitation  this  question  has  been  passed  upon 
by  the  legislature,  and  that  the  sovereign  power  has  removed 
from  this  honorable  body  the  right  or  authority  to  apportion 
this  fund  among  religious  societies.  If  we  are  right  in  this 
part  of  the  discussion  we  might  stop  here.  If  this  ground 
is  well  taken  the  petition  must  unquestionably  be  rejected. 
Your  honors  caunot  act  for  want  of  jurisdiction.    But  sup- 


pose us  to  be  wrong  — put  out  of  view  the  act  of  1824,  nnd 

consider  the  question  as  it  presents  itself  on  general  prin- 
ciples, as  if  we  were  to  argue  it  before  a  committee  ol  the 
legislature.  How  have  your  honors  acted  on  this  subject 
already?  The  present  disposition  of  the  School  Fund  is 
among  the  Public  School  Society,  the  Mechanics'  Society, 
the  Orphan  Asylum,  the  Harkem  School,  the  Manhattan- 
villc  School,  the  Yorkville  School,  the  Catholic  Benevolent 
Society,  the  New-York  Institution  for  the  Blind,  the  Half 
Orphan  Asylum,  the  Association  for  the  Benefit  of  Colored 
Orphans  in  New-York.  Of  these  the  most  prominent  is 
the  Public  School  Society,  the  utility  and  benefits  of  which 
it  is  impossible  to  extol  too  highly,  but  whose  power  the 
reverend  gentleman  most  egrcgiously  exaggerated.  >\  bal 
arc  its  powers  1  In  1805  this  Society  was  incorporated  by 
the  legislature  under  the  name  of  "  The  Society  for  Esta- 
blishing a  Free  School  in  the  City  oj  JVeto  York,  for  the 
Education  oj  such  Poor  Children  as  do  not  belong  to  or 
are  provided  for  by  any  Religious  Society."  In  relation  to 
the  original  petition  on  which  the  chaiter  was  granted  on 
which  the  reverend  gentleman  has  commented,  it  is  suffi- 
cient lo  obsene,  that  at  that  time  no  school  fund  existed, 
and  the  petitioners  might  ask  leave  to  give  religious  educa 
tion  or  any  other  species  of  education;  whether  wise  or  not, 
that  petition  has  no  connection  with  the  application  of  the 
Common  School  Fund.  In  1816  the  power  of  that  Society 
was  extended  to  all  children  who  were  proper  objects  of 
giatuitous  education,  and  the  name  was  changed  to  "  The 
Free  School  Society  of  New-York."  On  the  8th  of  Janu- 
ary, 1826,  it  was  altered  to  "The  Public  School  Society, 
by  which  name  it  is  still  known.  The  yearly  income  of 
this  "magnificent  incorporation"  so  "dangerous  to  the  li- 
beities  of  the  people"  is  limited  by  its  charter  to  $10,000 
per  annum.  This  Society  has  been  called,  by  the  reverend 
gentleman,  a  "monopoly."  I  did  not  expect  to  receive  to 
night  a  lesson  on  the  evils  of  monopolies. 

That  subject,  we  pretty  thoroughly  discussed  some  years 
since,  as  you,  Mr.  President, no  doubt  well  recollect.  That 
discussion  was  carried  on  here  by  one  of  the  most  upright 
aud  boldest  spirits  that  ever  inhabited  a  mortal  frame.  It 
is  foreign  to  this  subject,  but  I  shall  never  forego  any  op- 
portunity of  commemorating  with  mvfaint  praise  the  name 
of  William  Leggett.  But  this  Society,  sir,  is  net  one  of 
those  huge  political  engines  which  we  were  then  taught  to 
dread — a  Society  incorporated  under  a  general  statute,  the 
privileges  of  which  are  open  to  all;  the  only  object  of  which 
is  to  supply  education  to  the  poor;  the  annual  income  of 
which  is  limited  to  $10,000,  is  not,  I  need  not  assure  your 
honors,  such  a  "dangerous  monopoly"  as  should  exclude  it 
from  popular  favor.  It  is  just  such  a  monopoly,  just  such 
a  monster,  if  the  reverend  gentleman  likes  the  phrase  better, 
as  any  one  of  the  churches  which  he  represents.  Some 
better  ground  of  objection  must  be  found  than  that  this  in- 
cotporation  is  a  "  monopoly."  The  argument  of  the  re- 
verend gentleman  has  certainly  the  merit  of  flexibility,  but 
it  stretches  too  far :  he  sets  cut  with  the  proposition  that  this 
Society  inculcates  sectarianism,  'cut  when  he  found  that 
would  be  turned  against  him,  he  goes  on  the  other  tack  and 
charges  them  with  infidelity.  Not  quite  satisfied  with  either 
of  these,  he  starts  the  certainly  novel  accusation  that  it  is  a 
monopoly,  and  finally  he  insist?  that  the  Society  has  not  the 
confidence  of  the  people.  As  to  this  matter,  like  most 
others,  facts  speak  louder  than  wcrds.  A  statement  has 
been  recently  prepared  in  relation  to  the  children  taught  ia 
these  schools,  which  shows  the  nature  of  their  efieet.s  on  the 
population  of  this  city.  The  report  not  only  gives  the  num- 
ber of  the  children  taught,  but  the  occupation  of  the  parents 


3) 


has  been  carefully  set  down,  and  a  single  glance  at  it  will 
show  what  class  of  society  is  most  interested  in  the  support 
of  this  '-'dangerous  monopoly."  Of  16,000  children,  no 
less  than  1,488,  or  about  one-tenth,  are  the  children  of  la- 
borers; 1 40 1,  or  nearly  another  tenth,  are  the  children  of 
widows;  945  shoemakers;  502  cabinet-makers;  416  .la- 
sons;  579  tailors;  493  blacksmiths;  while  of  clergymen 
there  are  but  13;  of  doctors  44  ;  lawyers  25;  and  the  gen- 
tlemen figure  in  the  list  to  the  amount  of  26.  This  is  the 
proportion  in  which  the  children  of  the  different  classes  en- 
joy the  benefits  of  education  from  the  Public  School  So- 
ciety. The  reverend  gentleman's  assertion  that  the  Society 
has  not  the  confidence  of  the  public,  is  somewhat  answered 
by  this  statement.  But  if  it  were  otherwise,  should  it  be 
thought  strange,  and  would  it  be  singu'ar  if  the  same  elo- 
quent voice  which  we  Have  heard  this  night,  is  constantly 
raised  to  deter  one  large  and  important  class  of  the  people 
from  entering  those  common  schools,  arousing  the  preju- 
dices of  the  poorer  part  of  our  population  as  to  the  motives 
of  the  Society  and  the  character  of  its  instruction  ?  But  it 
is  not  true.  In  point  of  fact  they  have  the  confidence  of  the 
people  to  a  most  remarkable  extent. 

This  institution  has  organized  98  schools  ;  expends  an- 
nually about  $130,000,  and  is,  as  I  have  said,  the  principal 
agent  of  the  common  school  education  in  our  city  This 
institution  has  in  its  instruction,  most  sedulously  confined 
itself  to  a  secular  and  moral  education,  and  most  scrupu- 
lously eschewed  every  thing  of  a  sectarian  tendency.  It  is 
against  this  institution  that  these  petitions  are  most  espe- 
cially aimed. 

To  come  back  to  the  other  recipients  of  the  school  fund. 
The  Haarlaem,  Hamilton,  Manhattanville,  and  Yorkville 
schools,  as  well  as  the  African  and  Mechanics  Society,  are 
I  believe  proper  free  schools,  some  of  them  devoted  to  par- 
ticular classes  of  society,  but  all  confining  themselves  to 
secular  moral  education — steering  clear  of  sectarianism  in 
every  shape.  The  other  institutions  do  in  some  shape  or 
other  convey  religious  instruction,  and  as  such  are  excep- 
tions to  the  general  rule. 

A  report  was  not  long  since  (I  think  in  1833)  made  by 
the  Board  of  Assistants  against  the  claims  of  these  latter  es- 
tablishments, on  the  ground — the  same  we  now  urge — that 
this  fund  is  intended  for  the  purposes  of  secular  education, 
and  that  those  institutions,  such  as  the  Orphan  Asylum,  no 
matter  how  excellent  they  may  be — no  matter  how  much 
good  they  may  effect,  do  not  come  within  the  pale  of  those 
educational  establishments  to  which  it  was  intended  that 
this  fund  should  be  devoted.  Unfortunately  t  :e  views  of  the 
report  did  not  prevail.  Your  honors  have  already  gone  be- 
yond the  intention  of  the  Legislature  and  the  Constitution 
— and  have  already  erroneously  granted  aid  to  institutions 
which  do  not  strictly  come  within  the  original  design  of  the 
Common  School  System.  But  is  this  to  be  established  as 
a  precedent?  I  think  not.  The  grants  to  these  institutions, 
of  small  amount  and  little  consequence,  will  hardly  serve  as 
a  pretext  for  breaking  up  the  system  altogether.  The  ap- 
plication now  before  you  is,  that  your  honors  will  be  pleas- 
ed to  designate,  as  among  the  schools  entitled  to  participate 
in  the  Common  School  Fund,  St.  Patrick's  School,  St 
Peter's  School,  St.  Mary's  School,  St.  Joseph's  School,  St. 
James'  School,  St.  Nicholas'  School,  Transfiguration 
Church  School,  and  St.  John's  School. 

Now,  if  your  honors  please,  what  is  the  ground  of  this  pe- 
tition? First,  that  the  Catholics,  who,  as  represented  by  the 
reverend  gentlemen,  pay  taxes  equally  with  all  other  citi- 
zens, cannot  enjoy  the  benefits  of  the  schools,  because  their 


consciences  will  not  permit  them  to  send  their  children 
there.  I  am  by  no  means  disposed  to  under-rate  the  force 
of  this  objection  :  if  I  oppose  this  application  it  is  with  no 
desire  to  achieve  a  paltry  triumph  over  the  petitioners  or  the 
reverend  gentleman  himself.  Our  object  is  that  which 
actuates  him — it  is  the  wish  that  the  children  of  the  poor  be 
educated — to  give  them  that  which  the  petitioners  say  they 
are  striving  to  obtain.  If  there  is  anything  in  our  system 
which,  rightly  considered,  prevents  their  enjoyment  of  its  ad- 
vantages, the  system  is  in  that  respect  wrong.  If  a  large 
body  of  our  citizens  cannot  (in  fact  and  for  good  reasons) 
participate  in  the  advantages  of  our  public  free  education, 
that  education  is  on  a  wrong  footing — is  radically  wrong. 
But  the  question  is  after  all,  one  of  fact.  Is  the  ground  on 
which  they  prevent  their  children  from  going  to  these 
schools  well  taken  ?  What  then  is  the  reason  which  they 
assign?  As  I  have  said,  the  objections  resolve  themselves 
into  two — and  these  two  are  totally  incompatible  and  incon- 
sistent with  each  other.  One  branch  of  the  objection  is 
that  the  instruction  is  purely  secular.  This  has  been  urged 
not  only  in  the  argument  of  the  reverend  gentleman,  but 
the  same  view  of  the  subject  is  presented  in  the  documents 
presented  to  this  Board.  It  is  there  stated  in  various  forms 
that  religion  is  excluded — that  religion  is  not  taught — that 
the  instruction  is  purely  secular,  and  that  the  children  grow 
up  infidels  in  consequence.  That  is  alleged  to  be  the  ten- 
dency of  the  schools.  Such  is  the  first  objection.  Now 
what  is  the  other,  or  the  other  head  of  this  same  objection. 
That  the  Bible  is  used  by  the  pupil  "xoilhout  note  or  com- 
mr.nt" — that  the  schools  are  totally  Protestant  in  their  bear- 
ing, and  tend  to  undermine  the  Catholic  faith.  One  of 
these  positions  is,  I  suppose,  with  great  respect,  untenable — 
a  child  cannot  well  grow  up  a  Protestant  and  an  Infidel  at 
the  same  time.  On  which  does  the  gentleman  rely  for  the 
great  responsibility  he  assumes  in  dissuading  his  parishion- 
ers from  availing  themselves  of  these  schools.  The  Bible 
without  "  note  or  commentl"  Is  this  the  objection  ?  Whose 
"notes"  or  "comments"  I  pray  does  he  intend  to  introduce 
into  our  common  schools?  Is  it  possible  that  the  Bible 
cannot  in  this  day  and  generation  be  trusted  in  the  hands 
of  our  American  children?  If  the  whole  Bible  cannot  be 
used,  cannot  such  extracts  from  it  be  compiled  as  will  sa- 
tisfy all  parties?  This  has  been  the  course  actually  adopted 
by  the  trustees.  They  habitually  use  a  volume  composed 
of  selections  from  the  Bible.  Cannot  these  selections  be 
made  so  as  to  satisfy  all  sects  ?  The  real  tendency  of  the 
reverend  gentleman's  reasoning  in  this  matter,  cannot  be 
appreciated  without  recollecting  the  difference  between  the 
Catholic  and  Protestant  Bible.  I  do  not  intend  to  draw 
any  parallel  between  the  texts  of  the  translation  which  we 
use,  and  that  of  the  Douay  or  the  Catholic  Bible.  All  our 
early  associations  are  so  interwoven  with  our  own  version, 
that  it  would  be  no  easy  matter  to  give  the  Catholic  trans- 
lation a  fair  and  impartial  judgment,  as  far  as  the  richness, 
beauty,  and  force  of  style  is  concerned;  but  on  one  point 
surely  we  of  the  Protestant  faith  cannot  claim  any  superi- 
ority. In  the  moral  teaching  of  the  two  versions  there  is 
no  consider"  ble  difference;  in  the  doctrinal  points  there  are 
it  is  true,  some  important  discrepancies.  Where  the  word 
repent  is  used  in  our  edition,  in  the  Catholic  it  is  d ■»  pe- 
nance ;  for  the  words  daily  bread,  in  the  Catholic  edition, 
are  substituted  snpersubslaniial  bread;  but  the  great  moral 
precepts  (I  speak  now  of  the  teaching  of  our  Saviour)  are 
the  same.  How  can  it  be  otherwise?  We  are  all  chris- 
tians ;  either  Bible  i3  the  code  of  Christ ;  but  as  the  reve- 
rend gentleman  has  said,  it  is  the  "  notes  and  comments" 


HI 

which  distinguish  the  Catholic  from  the  Protestant  edition;  might  convince  'your  honors  how  far  they  have  gone  to 

it  is  to  the  edition  without  note  or  comment  *hat  the  objec-  meet  what  they  considered  the  well-founded  remonstrances 
tion  exists.  This  objectiou  is  a  fundamental  one  in  priu-  of  the  Catholics.  They  have  expurgated  whole  passages  of 
ciple.  The  Catholic  Bible  is  filled  with  marginal  notes  text  from  some  books,  and  in  other  instances  have  patted 
which  inculcate  dogmas  proving  or  seeking  to  prove  doc-  two  leaves  together  so  as  to  annihilate  completely  the  objec- 
trinal  points — Transubstantiation,  for  instance;  or  the  ne-  tionable  paisages  until  a  new  edition  can  be  procured. — 
cessity  of  the  Fasts  and  Penance.  Now  for  the  purposes  of  This  has  been  done  too,  notwithstanding  the  refusal  of  the 
this  argument,  the  truth  of  these  doctrines  is  not  of  the  Catholic  authorities  to  give  the  least  aid,  and  surely  it  is  not 
slightest  impoitance.  I  do  not  care  whether  Protestant  or  fair  when  this  has  been  done  to  insist  that  these  gentlemen 
Catholic  be  right.  The  question  is  not  one  of  sectarian  were  blameable  for  not  discovering  these  passages  sooner, 
dogmas,  but  of  education.    The  difference  is  not  as  to  the  I  repeat,  it  is  not  common  fairness. 

justice  or  correctness  of  the  "notes  and  comments,"  but  as  They  have  offered  to  make  the  books  unobjectionable  to 
to  the  propriety  of  using  any — whether  our  children  shall  be  Catholics — they  have  asked  the  gentlemen  who  now  com- 
taught  to  love  their  neighbors,  and  not  to  lie,  and  not  to  plain,  to  lay  their  fingers  on  those  passages  which  are  ob- 
steal,  or  whether  their  young  minds  shall  be  occupied  with  jectionable,  and  they  have  promised  that  they  should  be 
the  pros  and  cons  of  Transubstantiation,  Penance,  and  struck  out.  But  all  co-operation  and  assistance  has  been 
Fasts.  Mankind  has  never  disagreed  as  to  the  propriety  of  refused.  There  is  one  other  branch  of  the  question,  as  re- 
robbinc,  or  cheating,  or  bearing  false  witness,  but  about  gards  the  conduct  of  the  School  Society  of  no  little  import- 
these  dogmas,  these  doctrines,  the  race  has  been  cutting  ance.  The  schools  during  the  week  are  under  the  control 
each  others  throats  for  the  last  ten  centuries.  For  the  last  of  the  School  Society,  but  on  Sundays  they  have  been  used 
four  centuries  these  doctrines  have  dyed  Europe  with  blood,  as  Sunday  Schools  by  such  religious  societies  as  would 
It  is  these  recollections — these  reminiscences  which  hav  e  pay  for  the  fuel  and  take  charge  of  the  building.  This  pri- 
dictated  our  legislation  on  this  subject.  It  is  these  prodi-  vilege  has  been  tendered  to  the  Catholics.  They  have  been 
gious  evils  that  American  statesmen  have  striven  to  avoid,  told,  "If  you  will  avail  yourselves  during  the  week-days  of 
This  is  the  evil  which  the  trustees  believe  they  see  in  the  the  Public  Schools  you  may  have  the  use  of  the  buildings 
application  now  made,  and  in  behalf  of  both  Catholics  and  on  Sundays  to  give  such  religious  education  as  you  see  fit, 
Protestants,  they  implore  you  to  reject  this  petition.  They  and  you  may  use  the  Douay  Bible  or  the  Missal."  No- 
have  confined  themselves  in  the  instruction  given  in  these  thing  surely  can  be  fairer  or  more  impartial  than  to  place 
schools  to  that  which  they  believe  is  in  conformity  with  the  all  the  sects  on  an  equality  during  the  week,  and  on  Sun- 
intentions  of  the  State — a  secular  education — reading  and  days  to  use  them  as  they  choose  for  religious  purposes, 
writing,  and  the  rules  of  arithmetic,  with  such  instruction  There  is  but  one  other  branch  of  the  reverend  gentleman's 
on  the  precepts  of  the  Bible  as  they  did  suppose  all  persons  remarks  to  which  it  will  be  nesessary  to  refer;  that  is,  as 
calling  themselves  Christians  could  agree  in.  If  this  is  to  the  character  of  the  schools,  for  which  a  share  of  the  fund 
wrong,  the  trustees  are  wrong  altogether,  and  something  is  now  demanded.  The  reverend  gentleman  insists  that 
else  must  be  substituted.  If  a  moral  education  is  not  of  they  will  not  be  sectarian  schools;  but  this  must  be  so; 
itself  sufficient,  if  it  is  not  the  only  proper  education  for  our  they  can  be  nothing  else  from  the  nature  of  the  case.  The 
free  schools,  something  else  must  be  substituted.  The  re-  schools  are  attached  to  their  Churches,  they  are  within  the 
ligious,  the  doctrinal,  the  sectarian  education  they  have  sound  of  the  chaunt,  almost  within  reach  of  the  altar ;  and 
hitherto  left  to  the  fireside,  to  the  parents,  to  the  Sunday  if  sectarian  schools  are  not  to  be  established  what  is  the 
school.  They  do  not  pretend  to  give  it;  they  do  not  pre-  object  of  their  establishment  at  all?  If  the  objection  to  the 
tend  by  the  use  of  the  Bible  to  teach  more  than  that  moral  existing  schools  is  that  they  convey  no  religious  instruction, 
code  which  every  class  of  Christians,  whether  Catholic  or  and  these  schools  are  intended  to  obviate  such  objections, 
Protestant,  they  conceived  would  unite  to  give.  In  these  what  kind  of  education,  I  beg,  will  be  given?  What,  to  be 
matters  it  is  worth  while  to  look  at  the  experience  of  other  sure,  but  the  teaching  of  the  Catholic  faith.  The  very 
countries.  The  same  controversy  that  has  arisen  here,  has  ground — the  whole  foundation  of  their  petition  is  that 
arisen  also  in  Ireland ;  but  there — in  a  country  torn  by  re-  the  schools  ought  to  convey  religious  education;  and 
ligious  schisms — and  I  state  a  fact  well  known  to  the  reve-  do  they  not  in  the  schools  which  they  mean  to  establish  in- 
rend  gentleman,  both  Protestants  and  Catholics  have  united  tend  to  convey  religious  instruction,  and  you  need  not  be 
in  a  selection  of  extracts  to  be  used,  some  from  our  ver-  told  by  me  that  it  will  be  a  Catholic  education,  a  purely 
sion,  some  from  the  Douay  Bible.  I  do  not  say  that  this  Catholic — a  sectarian  education.  If  you,  gentlemen,  are 
could  be  adopted  here,  but  I  do  say  there  is  some  neutral  prepared  to  lend  your  funds  and  your  authority  to  such  a 
ground  on  which  both  paities  can  meet.  I  do  not  pretend  scheme,  you  have  only  to  say  the  word.  The  trustees  of 
that  the  scheme  of  the  trustees  is  wholly  unexceptionable,  the  Public  Schools,  and  the  gentlemen  who  compose  the 
but  I  do  say  that  vastly  greater  defects  must  be  discovered  Public  School  Society  hope  the  result  of  this  application 
in  it  than  have  yet  been  pointed  out,  to  justify  its  abandon-  will  be  such  as  will  bring  the  children  into  the  schools, 
ment — and  that  with  all  its  imperfections  on  its  head,  it  is  Their  object  is,  that  the  children  shall  be  educated.  If 
a  thousand  told  better  than  what  is  now  proposed  as  its  sub-  there  is  anything  in  the  objection  made  as  to  the  character 
stitute.  As  to  the  other  branch  of  this  double-headed  objec-  of  the  schools  or  the  lessons  taught  therein,  let  a  committee 
tion,  that  the  books  used  in  the  schools  are  hostile  to  Ca-  be  appointed  by  your  honors  from  your  own  body  to  inves- 
tholics,  and  promote  the  Protestant  interest:  if  they  are  so  tigate  the  subject.  If  any  well-founded  cause  of  complaint 
they  ought  to  be  expurgated ;  and  if  they  cannot  be  satis-  exists  it  will  doubtless  be  removed.  But  until  it  is  esta- 
factorily  expurgated,  the  books  themselves  ought  to  be  aban-  blished  by  belter  proof  than  we  have  here,  that  these  schools  are 
doncd  and  their  places  supplied  by  others.  The  trustees  objectionable,  and  by  better  argument  than  we  have  this 
have  viewed  this  matter  in  the  same  light — they  have  done  night  heard,  that  the  public  funds  should  be  devoted  to  feed 
all  in  their  power  to  remove  the  Catholic  objection  so  far  the  fires  of  religious  fanaticism,  surely  your  honors  will  not 
as  it  exists.    I  regret  tjiat  the  books  are  not  here  that  I  abandon  these  long-established  and  excellent  institutions. 


Hiram  Ketchum,  Esq.,  spoke  as  follows :  meetings  were  held,  we  should  have  supposed  that  they  were 

Mr.  Chairman,  political  meetings,  and  that  possession  of  the  Hall  was  taken 

This  is  an  application  on  the  part  of  the  Roman  Catholic  by  either  the  "  Whigs"  or  the  "  Democrats."  It  seems  to  me 
Church,  or  of  the  Schools  under  the  direction  of  the  Roman  not  becoming — it  seems  to  me  that  it  is  not  treating  the 
Catholic  Church,  to  be  permitted  to  participate  in  the  School  question  in  a  proper  manner  to  make  these  popular  appeals, 
Fund.  I  desire  to  say  this  is  not  a  controversy  of  Catholics  and  then  to  come  here  en  masse  to  ask  your  honors  to  grant 
with  Methodists,  or  of  the  Catholics  with  the  Society  of  the  prayer  of  this  petition,  at  the  same  time  telling  you  that 
Friends;  the  question  here  is,  whether  the  petitioners  can,  the  Catholics  are  one-fifth  of  our  population.  I  care  not  how 
upon  principles  of  public  policy,  be  permitted  to  participate  in  numerous  they  are.  I  know  the  Catholics,  when  joined  by 
the  School  Fund.  I  may  say  in  advance,  that  I  don't  oppose  others  on  a  former  day,  had  their  petition  rejected  ;  and  I  trust 
the  petition  on  behalf  of  the  Public  School  Society  because  when  they  come  here  alone,  attended  by  the  populace  which 
the  petitioners  are  Catholics.  Within  the  last  eighteen  years  they  have  excited,  they  will  have  no  more  nor  any  less  con- 
it  has  been  my  duty,  on  behalf  of  the  School  Society,  to  op-  ceded  to  them  than  is  right,  on  sound  principles  of  public 
pose  many  petitions  for  participation  in  this  fund.    Petitions  policy. 

have  come  from  Episcopalian  Schools ;  and  those  Schools  There  are  two  principles  or  propositions  about  which 

have  been  represented  by  a  gentleman  who  is  now  one  of  the  we  shall  not  disagree.    The  first  is,  that  the  Legislature  has 

highest  dignitaries  in  that  Church  in  this  State,  and  also  by  power  to  direct  that  a  Public  Fund  shall  be  provided  for  the 

able  counsel.    Petitions  have  come  from  the  Dutch  Reform-  education  of  every  child  in  the  state.    There  is  no  contradict 

ed  Church,  and  they  have  been  advocated  with  great  ability,  tion  here  of  any  sound  principle.    It  is  no  violation  of  any 

Petitions  have  come  from  the  Methodist  Church,  and  have  sound  public  principle  in  the  Legislature  to  enact,  that 

likewise  been  advocated  with  great  ability;  and  from  the  out  of  the  public  money,  raised  by  tax  on  all  our  citizens, 

Baptist  Church,  and  they  have  been  advocated  with  equal  every  child  in  the  state  may  be  permitted  to  receive  the 

ability ;  and  from  the  Roman  Catholic  Church  time  and  rudiments  of  an  education.    There  is  one  other  principle 

again ;  and  the  prayers  of  these  petitioners,  when  united  as  which  is  equally  in  accordance  with  the  well  established 

when  separate,  have,  upon  what  were  deemed  sound  public  public   policy  in  this  state,  namely,  that  not  one  cent, 

principles,  been  rejected  by  your  predecessors.    Now  the  raised  by  public  taxation,  can  go  to  support  a  religious 

petition  comes  from  one  society  alone,  and  the  question  institution — can  go  in  payment  for  an  education  purely 

is,  whether  the  same  principle  which  excluded  the  Epis-  religious  in  its  character.    Now  let  us  inquire  for  a  mo- 

copalians,  which  excluded  the  Methodists,  which  excluded  ment  the  reasons  on  which  these  propositions  rest.    Why  is 

the  Dutch  Reformed  Church,  which  excluded  the  Baptists,  it  that  the  state  can  tax  all  the  people  for  the  education  of 

shall  not  now,  as  it  has  heretofore  done,  exclude  the  Roman  our  children?    Because  it  is  admitted  that  intelligence  is 

Catholics  also.  necessary  to  enable  every  citizen  to  discharge  his  duty 

Mr.  President,  I  regret  that  some  things  have  been  said  on  to  the  community — because  our  institutions  rest  upon  the 

behalf  of  these  petitioners  that  have  been  said.    I  regret  that  intelligence  and  virtue  of  the  people;  therefore,  it  is  right 

an  attempt  should  have  been  made  here  to  enlist  prejudices  that  the  state  should  furnish  that  intelligence  to  every 

against  the  Public  School  Society,  because  it  is  a  corporation,  member,  and  it  is  no  answer  for  any  man,  who  is  called  to 

The  Public  Schools  of  this  city  are  managed  upon  the  same  pay  a  tax  for  that  legitimate  purpose,  to  say,  "  I  send  my  chil- 

pnnciples  on  which  the  Common  Schools  throughout  the  dren  to  schools  where  I  pay  for  their  education — I  do  not 

state  are  conducted ;  and  if  the  Public  Schools  are  wrong,  wish  to  avail  myself  of  the  Public  Fund — my  children  are 

the  principles  of  the  Common  Schools  throughout  the  whole  educated  at  this  or  that  classical  school — I  don't  wish  to 

State  are  equally  erroneous:  and  it  seems  to  me  that  the  participate,  and  therefore  I  won't  pay  the  tax."    Thi3  is  an 

question  is,  not  whether  the  Public  Schools  are  managed  by  answer  that  the  state  would  not  admit  for  a  moment.  And 

a  corporation  or  not,  but  whether,  upon  principles  which  have  it  might  be  that  the  state  adopted  some  system  of  education 

heretofore  been  discussed,  there  can  be  conceded  to  Catholics,  which  might  not  suit  all;  the  Lancasterian,  for  instance,  as 

or  any  other  religious  denomination,  that  which  is  now  sought,  in  this  city.   Now  some  may  say,  "  I  dislike  the  Lancasterian 

If  they  be  so  fortunate  as  to  prove  that  the  Public  Schools  are  system — I  think  it  is  calculated  to  impart  a  superficial  edu- 

on  a  wrong  basis,  still  they  have  not  gained  their  point — still  cation — I  dislike  it — I  have  a  deep  rooted  objection  to  that 

they  have  not  shown  that  Catholics,  or  any  other  religious  de-  system."    But  will  the  state  permit  him  to  say,  I  will  with- 

nomination  are  entitled  to  the  Fund.    I  may  be  permitted  hold  my  tax?    I  cannot  pay  my  tax,  because  I  have  an 

also  to  say,  I  regret  that  popular  appeals  have  been  made  on  objection  to  the  system  which  prevents  my  children  partici- 

this  subject.    I  do  not  object  to  the  Trustees  of  that  Associa-  paling  in  the  Fund ;  and  therefore  I  ask  the  privilege  of 

tion  coming  here  to  petition;  but  when  I  read  accounts  of  retaining  my  portion  of  the  tax?    Would  the  state  listen 

popular  appeals  being  made  by  a  high  dignitary  of  that  to  such  a  plea?    What  then  is  the  conclusion  ?    Why,  the 

church  to  the  people,  to  enlist  the  popular  prejudice  on  this  state,  having  the  right  to  educate  the  children,  and  having 

subject,  I  may  be  permitted  to  say,  that,  at  least,  the  course  the  right  to  tax  the  people  for  that  purpose,  must  necessa- 

is  a  novel  one.    When  I  read  accounts  of  the  first  pastor  of  rily  adopt  some  general  system — it  must  follow  some  gen- 

that  church, — when  I  read  of  a  mitred  gentleman,  being  eral  rule,  and  whatever  my  scruples  may  be,  whatever  may 

received  by  the  people  with  "  cheers,"  when  I  read  that  be  the  scruples  of  any  other  individual  here,  or  throughout 

he  addressed  them  and  was  "  cheered"  on,  as  we   are  the  community,  and  however  oppressive  it  may  be  to  me,  or 

accustomed  to  be  in  our  public  meetings,  I  must  say  there  is  to  others,  who  cannot  avail  themselves  of  the  system,  they 

something  novel  in  the  proceeding.    The  gentlemen  com-  must  submit.    The  great  end  which  the  state  has  in  view — 

posing  this  body,  I  conceive  are  capable  of  reasoning  on  this  to  impart  intelligence  to  every  citizen — must  be  accom- 

eubject,  and  it  is  hardly  necessary  that  a  mitred  gentleman  plished,  and  on  some  principle  adopted  and  established  by 

should  descend  into  the  arena,  and  appeal  to  the  popular  pre-  the  state  itself.    Well,  what  is  the  next  principle  and  reason  ? 

judice  or  passion,  to  influence  the  judgment  of  this  Board.    I  We  see  that  no  tax  can  be  laid  for  the  support  of  reli- 

arn  sure  sir,  if  I— and  I  speak  it  with  all  respect— if  I,  or  any  gion.    Why  ?    Religion  is  the  foundation  of  sound  morals  ; 

other  man,  had  been  passing  St.  James's,  at  the  times  these  that  no  man  will  deny  ;  we  do  not  live  in  an  age  wh»n  any 


/nan  denies  it.  Sound  morals  are  essential  to  the  preserva- 
tion of  the  community ;  why,  therefore,  shall  not  the  city  be 
taxed  for  that  which  is  essential  to  her  preservation  ?  Why 
shall  she  not  be  taxed  for  laying  the  foundation  on  which  sound 
morals,  and  sound  political  institutions  rest  ?  I  will  tell  you 
why.  We  are  divided  into  different  sects,  and  if  we  were 
taxed  for  the  support  of  religion,  it  would  happen — it  could 
not  be  prevented — that  a  man  w  ould  be  taxed  for  the  support 
of  a  religion  in  which  he  did  not  believe — and  which  he  re- 
regarded  as  injurious.  I  should  be  taxed  to  support  the  Jew- 
ish religion ;  Dr.  Brownlee  would  be  taxed  to  support  the 
Catholic  religion,  and  the  Reverend  gentleman  who  has  ad- 
dressed you  here  to  night,  would  be  taxed  to  support  Dr. 
Brownlee's  religion.  And  would  they  pay  the  tax  ?  No ; 
for  it  would  be  a  violation  of  conscience;  and  you  would 
then  see  the  time  arrive,  if  an  attempt  were  made  to  collect  such 
a  tax,  when  men  would  march  to  thestakeas  in  years  gone  by. 
Right  or  wrong,  you  would  see  many  Protestants  go  to  the 
stake,  before  they  would  let  a  single  dollar  of  their  money 
go  to  teach  the  Right  Reverend  Gentleman's  religion.  So, 
on  the  other  hand,  you  would  see  thousands  of  Catholics 
suffer  martyrdom  before  they  would  contribute  to  a  fund 
whereby  they  might,  by  chance,  be  contributing  to  the 
teaching  of  heresy.  This  is  the  reason  why  we  cannot 
have  a  general  tax  for  the  support  of  religion.  But  again, 
we  believe  that  religion  is  essential  to  sound  morals. 
There  is  no  gentleman  here  who  will  deny  that  the 
Christian  religion  is  the  great  conservative  principle  of  the 
community.  And  how  is  that  best  promoted  and  ad- 
vanced 1  By  being  let  alone ;  by  giving  every  denomina- 
tion a  fair  chance ;  by  leaving  religion  to  voluntary  support. 
It  is  best  for  religion  itself  that  it  should  be  let  alone  to 
extend  its  own  boundaries.  Now,  then,  Mr.  Chairman, 
to  me  it  is  most  manifest  that  this  community  is  bound  to 
furnish  the  rudiments  of  a  common  education.  The  state 
is  bound  to  do  this,  and  to  do  it  by  some  public  system — by 
some  ordinance,  or  by  some  law ;  the  state  is  bound  to  make 
provision  for  furnishing  this  education.  I  do  not  say — 1  will 
not  pretend  to  say,  that  the  state  has  a  right  to  take  the 
children  from  the  arms  of  their  mothers.  I  do  not  mean  to  say 
that  the  state  has  a  right  to  force  education  on  any  body. 
That  is  not  the  principle.  But  I  mean  to  say  that  the  state 
ought  to  furnish  a  system  which  shall  be  open  and  accept- 
able to  all.  It  ought  to  furnish  bread,  and  say  come  and 
eat.  I  do  not  mean  to  inflict  pains  and  penalties  ;  I  should 
think  they  would  be  hardly  necessary.  Let  us  go  furth  with 
persuasion  ;  I  am  for  using  no  force,  but  the  force  of  strong 
argument.  Well,  now  sir,  if  it  is  the  duty  of  the  state  to  fur- 
nish an  education  for  the  poor,  and  for  all  the  children  in  the 
community,  or  for  all  that  will  avail  themselves  of  it,  the  state 
must  establish  some  system ;  and  there  is  a  system  establish- 
ed in  the  City  of  New  York,  upon  what  we  supposed  to  be 
public  principles — Common  Schools  in  the  common  acc rota- 
tion of  that  term. 

Mr.  Chairman,  the  idea  that  we  are  bound  in  our  Common 
Schools  to  teach  religion  is  a  perfectly  novel  idea  to  an 
American  mind.  Who  ever  went  to  a  Common  School  to  be 
taught  religion?  I  am  in  the  midst  of  Americans  who  have  re- 
ceived their  education  in  the  Common  Schools  of  this  country, 
and  I  ask  who  ever  went  to  a  Common  School  to  receive  reli- 
gious instruction  ?  I  venture  to  say  that  the  idea  is  perfectly 
novel.  But  do  we  mean  to  say,  that  because  no  religion  is 
taught  in  these  Schools,  that  they  are  irreligious?  Far 
otherwise.  Now  the  Rev.  Gent,  has  said — with  all  his  pro- 
fessions of  kindness  he  has  said  that  religion  is  below  par  in 
the  Public  Schools  ;  at  an  immense  discount.  Now  is  it  so  ? 
He  argues  ingeniously  that  if  they  are  not  taught  the  doc- 


trines of  some  known  sect,  there  is  no  religion.  Why, 

Sir,  we  have  been  taught  sound  morals  in  all  our  Schools  ; 

I  do  not  know  any  school  in  which  they  have  not  been 
taught ;  I  do  not  know  a  mechanics'  shop  where  the  young 
American  or  Irishman  goes  to  be  instructed  in  the  trade 
of  a  cabinet  maker  or  blacksmith,  where  he  is  not  bound 
to  be  of  sound  morals.  This  obligation  prevails  every  where 
— it  is  a  thing  which  everybody  acknowledges.  We  are 
bound  to  teach  it.  "  Thou  shall  not  lie ;  Thou  shalt  not 
steal ;  Thou  shalt  not  bear  false  witness,'  are  precepts 
which  we  teach  in  our  Schools.  Who  ever  heard  to  the 
contrary  ?  And  if  we  are  bound  to  teach  them,  we  are 
at  liberty  to  teach  those  general  religious  truths  which 
give  them  sanction.  I  should  like  to  know  where  there 
is  a  School  in  which  the  master  is  not  at  liberty  to  say ; 
God's  eye  sees  all  you  do ;  and  if  you  steal,  or  lie,  the  retri- 
bution of  eternal  judgment  will  follow  you.  This  is  not 
teaching  religion.  This  is  morality,  and  an  invoking  of  the 
common  sanctions  of  that  morality.  Sir,  it  has  been  said  of 
these  Schools  that  they  do  not  teach  this.  Why,  if  the  gen- 
tlemen had  visited  the  Schools,  and  I  am  afraid  they  have 
not,  they  would  have  seen,  if  their  eyes  had  been  properly  di- 
rected, mottoes  of  this  kind,  "God  sees  and  knows  all  our 
thoughts,  words,  and  actions.  "God  sees  all  we  do;  he  hears 
all  we  say ;  he  knows  all  we  do.  "Son  reverence  thy  parent." 
And  yet,  gentlemen,  we  don't  teach  religion  ;  we  don't  teach 
purgatory ;  we  don't  teach  Baptism  or  no  Baptism  ;  we  don't 
teach  anything  that  is  disputed  among  Christians.  We  have 
no  right  to  do  so :  but  we  have  the  right  to  declare  moral 
truths,  and  this  community  gives  us  that  right — not  the  law, 
but,  as  rny  friend  says,  public  sentiment. 

And  is  there  no  common  principle  in  which  all  agree  ?  Is 
there  not  a  principle  to  which  all  religious  men  refer  ?  And 
have  not  we  the  right,  thus  far,  to  teach  the  sanctions  of  mo- 
rality in  these  Schools  ?  And  because  we  teach  the  princi- 
ples which  every  body  acknowledges,  and  no  man  disputes — 
which  give  offence  to  nobody,  and  ought  not,  are  we  to  be 
told  that  these  are  religious  Schools?  Why  in  our  Common 
Schools  we  have  all  been  taught  the  common  truths  of  reli- 
gion, and  yet  no  one  ever  went  there  to  receive  religious  edu- 
cation. 

Mr.  Chairman,  while  in  these  common,  established  schools, 
we  give  the  rudiments  of  an  ordinary  education — while  we 
teach  there  to  write  and  cipher,  and  read  the  newspaper,  and 
discharge  the  duties  of  citizens,  while  this  is  done,  there  is  an- 
other department  in  which  religion  is  taught.  We  all  know 
it — we  all  feel  it ;  and  while  the  legislature  can  go  to  any 
extent  to  advance  man  in  one  department,  that  of  common 
elementary  learning,  there  is  another,  which  is  left  to  reli- 
gion, where  the  pastor  takes  the  children,  where  the  Christian 
pare/it  takes  the  children,  where  the  benevolent  Christian 
takes  the  children  to  his  Sunday  School  or  elsewhere,  and 
brings  them  under  the  influence  of  religion.  This  department 
is  supplied  by  voluntary  contribution,  and  not  one  dollar  can 
be  paid  by  public  tax.  Now  I  do  maintain,  sir,  that  I  speak  of 
a  line  so  clear,  so  broad,  that  every  man  who  hears  me,  who 
has  had  the  good  fortune  to  receive  an  education  in  this  coun- 
try, will  understand  it ;  a  broad,  clear,  and  distinct  line  between 
secular  and  religious  education.  One  is  received  under  the  in- 
fluence of  a  religious  teacher ;  that  religious  teacher  gets  his 
pay  by  the  voluntary  contribution  of  willing  hearts  ;  he  dares 
not  get  it  anywhere  else ;  he  does  not  want  to  get  it  in  any 
other  way.  The  other  can  draw  on  the  state  for  any 
amount  that  the  people  in  their  sovereign  capacity  may  deter- 
mine. 

We  thus  undertake  in  these  Public  Schools  to  furnish  this 
secular  education,  embracing  as  it  does,  not  solely  and  ex- 


clusively  the  common  rudiments  of  learning,  but  also  a 
knowledge  of  good  morals,  and  those  common  sanctions 
of  religion,  which  are  acknowledged  by  every  body.  We 
have  established  such  a  system,  and  the  question  is,  whether 
that  system  shall  be  destroyed  and  a  new  one  established. 
That  is  the  question.  This  system  is  known  and  under- 
stood ;  it  has  spread  its  schools  all  over  our  city ;  it  is  un- 
der one  government ;  children  removing  from  one  W  aid 
to  another  find  in  each  the  same  schools,  are  accommodated 
with  the  same  books,  meet  with,  and  are  instructed  under 
the  same  uniform  system.  Now  shall  it  be  continued  or 
not?  Mr.  Chairman,  if  the  prayer  of  this  petition  be  grant- 
ed it  must  be  abandoned.  I  can  show  you  this  in  a  few 
minutes.  Does  the  reverend  gentleman  suppose  that  he 
alone  would  be  permitted  to  take  this  fund?  Does  he  ima- 
gine that  the  various  Protestant  denominations  will  stand 
bv,  and  look  on,  and  see  him  draw  ten,  twelve,  or  fourteen 
dollars  a  child,  for  its  education,  and  the  making  it — for  it 
would  be  so — that  would  be  the  result  after  all — not  only  a 
fair  scholar,  but  a  good  Catholic.  Does  he  suppose  he  is 
going  to  have  that  business  to  himself,  and  that  other  reve- 
rend gentlemen  are  going  to  stand  by,  and  build  up  no 
schools  ?  It  will  not  be  as  in  former  years,  as  the  reverend 
gentleman  conjectures,  lor  then  the  bounty  of  the  State 
was  small,  then  only  two  dollars  a  head,  or  something  of 
that  sort,  could  be  drawn,  and  the  Lancasterian  system  was 
not  introduced;  then  there  was  no  inducement  offered  to 
the  religious  bodies;  but  with  this  large  bounty  the  Presby- 
te,  ians,  the  Episcopalians,  the  Baptists,  and  our  friends  the 
Methodists,  who  are  it  seems  such  naughty  people,  will  have 
their  schools,  and  they  will  have  them  well  filled  too  ;  and  not 
only  filled  with  the  children  of  their  own  disciples,  but  they 
will  have  an  inducement  to  bring  in  others,  because  the  more 
they  draw  in,  the  more  money  they  will  draw,  and  the  con- 
sequence will  be  that  the  system  of  Public  Schools  will  be 
broken  up.  Now  the  consideration  which  I  wish  to  bring 
to  vour  mind  is,  whether  the  new  system  will  be  as  good  or 
better  than  the  old.  It  is  the  common  sense  way  of  acting 
not  to  desert  that  which  has  done  well,  that  which  has 
done  good  service,  unless  we  see  that  we  are  going  to 
improve  by  the  change.  What  is  the  charge  brought 
against  this  system  of  public  school  instruction  ?  What 
is  the  charge  ?  What  is  the  objection  ?  What  is  the 
system  established  for  1  It  is  to  furnish  a  good,  common, 
ordinary  literary  education — a  good  literary  and  scientific 
education — to  instruct  our  children  in  the  rudiments  of 
literature  and  science.  Now  there  is  no  charge — and  I  want 
this  body  to  look  at  this  paper  in  reference  to  that — there  is 
no  charge  against  the  School  Society  that  it  has  not  performed 
that  duty — that  it  has  not.  given  what  it  was  bound  to  give 
— the  rudiments  of  a  good  literary  education — that  it  has  not 
enabled  the  children  to  read,  and  write,  and  cipher,  and  fur- 
nished them  with  the  elements  of  geography,  so  as  to  fit  them 
to  go  forth  and  discharge  their  duties  as  intelligent  citizens. 
There  is  no  charge  against,  the  .Society  that  it  has  not  performed 
this.  What  then  is  it  1  Why  it  is  this,  that  the  Catholics,  from 
conscientious  scruples, cannot  come  inand  participate  in  the  ad- 
vantages of  the  system.  Their  consciences  forbid  ihem  to 
have  their  children  educated  in  these  schools.  Now,  Mr. 
Chairman,  there  is  no  man,  I  apprehend,  that  can  have  a 
higher  respect  for  the  rights  of  conscience,  than  he  who  now 
addresses  you  ;  but  let  us  examine  this  matter,  and  with  all 
respect  for  those  whose  claim  we  now  discuss,  I  fairly  and 
candidly  ask,  can  a  Roman  Catholic  have  conscientious  scru- 
ples against  my  learning  his  son  to  read,  to  write,  to  cipher, 
and  the  common  elements  of  geography  1    Can  it  be  1  Is 


it  possible  ?  Take  a  fair  intelligent  Protestant,  and  is  it  pos- 
sible that  any  Roman  Catholic  could  object  to  that  man  in- 
structing his  children  to  read,  write,  and  cipher  ?  Why  no  ; 
you  might  just  as  well  say  he  has  conscientious  scruples 
against  such  a  man  learning  his  son  "  the  art,  trade,  and 
mystery"  of  cabinet  making  in  a  Protestant  shop.  You  may 
just  as  well  say  that  he  has  conscientious  scruples  against 
placing  his  son  in  the  office  of  a  Protestant  lawyer  to  study 
law.  Why  is  it  so  in  fact  1  Go  into  your  fashionable 
schools  and  I  ask  you  if  there  are  not  there  as  many  Catho- 
lics, as  of  other  sects  1  I  think  I  have  in  my  eye  those, 
among  the  petitioners  themselves,  who  send  their  children  to 
Madame  this  or  that,  who  is  a  Protestant ;  and  there  are 
many  Protestants  here,  who  send  their  children  to  the 
Schools  of  Catholics  ;  and  in  doing  this,  they  consider  them- 
selves as  compromising  nothing,  for  there  is  no  religion  taught 
there.  These  considerations,  which  so  press  on  the  minds  of 
these  conscientious  petitioners  for  the  hardship  endured  by  the 
parents  who  send  their  children  to  public  schools  now,  are 
not  appreciated  in  their  own  case  when  they  send  their  sons 
to  Columbia  College,  or  to  the  Schools  of  Protestant  Mrs. 
Smith,  or  some  other  lady.  Well  now,  Mr.  Chairman,  if 
there  be  no  conscientious  scruples  at  all.  against  employing 
Protestants  to  teach  their  children  toread,  and  write,  and  cipher, 
on  what  can  their  conscientious  scruples  rest  1  It  has  been 
said,  (but  I  will  not  read  the  passage,  because  the  commonly 
understood  meaning  of  it  has  been  disavowed,)  that  the  chil- 
dren that  go  to  these  schools  do  not  reverence  their  parents, 
and  that  they  feel  a  contempt  for  ihem,  as  though  a  special 
influence  had  been  used  by  which  they  were  led  to  do  this. 
Now,  I  supposed,  until  it  was  disclaimed  so  explicitly,  that 
this  had  an  application  to  the  gentlemen  of  the  Society  of 
Friends.  But  the  Reverend  gentleman  has  disavowed  it ; 
and  he  ought  to  do  so,  for  I  can  tell  that  gentleman,  that  the 
Friends  never  perhaps  in  a  single  instance,  sent  or  permitted 
children  of  theirs  to  go  to  these  schools.  They  educate  their 
own  poor,  and  they  ask  the  state  for  no  participation. 
They  do  not  send  their  children  there,  and  I  venture  to  affirm 
that,  of  the  numerous  children  that  go  to  those  schools, 
not  one  attends  the  public  ordinano  s  of  religon  ac- 
cording to  the  mode  established  by  the  Society  of 
Friends.  And  I  will  go  farther,  and  say,  of  those  who 
are  educated  there,  none  are  conveited  to  their  faith. 
Whatever  may  be  intended  here,  or  elsewhere,  it  may  be 
asserted,  with  perfect  confidence,  that  those  individuals 
make  no  proselytes,  and  also  it  maybe  said,  that  they  have 
kept  their  people  from  being  teachers,  fearing  such  accusa- 
tions as  are  made  against  them  by  the  Rev.  Gentleman. 

And,  Mr.  President,  if  it  is  alleged,  and  I  understand  it 
now  to  be  disclaimed,  that  the  course  of  education  begets 
irreverence  to  parents,  I  can  only  say  they  who  affirm  it 
speak  of  that  which  they  do  not  understand. 

If  they  had  gone  to  these schoolsthey  would  have  seen 
what  care  is  taken,  what  sound  moral  principles  are  incul- 
cated, and  they  would  then  never  have  made  this  charge. 
But  it  is  now  disclaimed,  and  it  is  not  for  that  reason,  then, 
that  they  have  conscientious  scruples.  But  what  else  is 
there  ?  It  is  affirmed  that  some  of  these  books  contain  pas- 
sages reflecting  on  Catholics.  Now  1  submit  to  the  can- 
dour of  the  gentleman,  and  of  every  one  that  hears  me; — 
because  the  books,  containing  numerous  extracts  from  nu- 
merous authors,  collected  together  for  the  use  of  these 
schools,  contain  a  few  passages  which  I  may  conceive  re- 
flect on  me  or  on  my  religion,  or  on  my  politics,  is  that  a 
good  reason  why  I  should  have  conscientious  scruples  and 
objections  against  the  entire  system  1  Let  us  see  where  it 
would  lead.    Here  is  the  Catholic,  in  turning  over  perhaps 


96 


a  thousand  pages,  finds  some  fifty  lines  that  reflect  on  his 

religion.  I  venture  to  say  the  Calvinists,  on  turning  over 
those  pages  would  find  something  reflecting  on  them.  I 
have  not  made  the  experiment,  but  I  have  no  doubt  that 
would  be  the  result.  Then  comes  the  High  Churchman, 
and  if  he  does  not  find  something  there  bearing  on  his  pe- 
culiarities, I  am  mistaken.  Then  there  are  the  Methodists, 
and  if  they  do  not  find  something  there  bearing  on  what 
people  call  their  fanaticism,  it  is  extraordinary.  Then 
there  is  the  Politician,  and  there  may  be  something  extract- 
ed from  Jefferson  U3cd  in  these  schools,  and  to  this,  a  cer- 
tain class  of  politicians  may  say  ;  I  cannot  have  my  children 
taught  Jeffersonianism.  Well  then  there  is  my  particular, 
worthy  friend,  Daniel  Webster,  who  may  have  contributed 
something  to  the  pages  of  these  books,  and  a  Democrat, 
who  takes  up  ihe  books  may  say  I  cannot  go  Webster  any 
how;  1  must  have  that  expurgated.  Now  if  all  men  must 
go  on  in  this  way,  and  conscientiously  object  to  the  system 
because  in  the  reading  lessons  they  find  some  passages 
against  their  religious  or  political  opinions,  the  whole  of 
the  books  will  be  expunged.  I  do  not  mean  to  reflect 
on  the  conscientious  scruples  of  any  man,  but  I  ask  if 
we  are  not  bound  to  take  hold  of  this  system  in  a  fair  and 
candid  manner.  We  must  have  a  public  system  ;  and  it  is 
impossible  to  have  a  public  system  to  which  some  man 
may  not  have  scruples  and  objections.  Well,  sir,  but  what 
next?  Why,  the  Bible.  I  believe  a  chapter  from  the 
Bible,  the  Protestant  translation,  without  note  or  comment, 
is  read  in  some  of  these  schools  at  their  opening  every  day. 
Shall  we  give  up  this  Bible,  Mr.  President?  It  would  be 
a  very  hard  thing.  I  have  no  authority  to  say  how  far  the 
trustees  can  go,  or  will  go,  in  a  spirit  of  compromise,  with 
an  earnest  desire  to  get  in  these  children  ;  but  I  am  here  to 
say  that  it  will  be  a  great  sacrifice  to  give  up  the  Bible — 
to  give  up  that  translated  Bible, — containing,  as  we  believe, 
and  as,  I  doubt  not,  a  great  part  of  Christendom  believes, 
not  only  a  fair  translation,  but  a  vast  fund  of  pure  English. 
It  will  be  hard  to  give  up  that  Bible,  sir.  It  has  furnished 
consolation  in  life  and  hope  in  death,  to  many.  The  insti- 
tutions of  liberty  and  the  altars  of  piety  have  sprung  up  in 
the  path  of  that  translated  Bible;  and  whereever  that 
translated  Bible  has  gone  popular  institutions  have  risen. 
All  those  glorious  principles,  which,  here  in  this  country 
are  so  conspicuous,  have  come  from  that  Bible:  and 
whereever  that  translated  Bible  has  been  kept  from  the" 
hands  of  the  laity  there  has  been  darkness  and  despotism. 

We,  sir,  have  a  Declaration  of  Independence  of  which 
we  are  proud,  because  it  contains  those  great  principles 
of  liberty  which  are  found  in  the  Bible.  Yes,  sir,  there 
lies  beyond  that  Declaration  of  Independence,  a  book  whose 
principles  are  a  Declaration  of  Independence  to  man  ;  and 
whereever  that  book  is  read  man  finds  out  his  rights  and 
is  willing  to  assert  them. 

Mr.  President,  and  gentlemen  of  the  Board,  it  is  in  your 
hands.  It  is  at  present  in  the  hands  of  these  Trustees,  but 
it  is  a  very  delicate  trust.  We  are  called  upon  to  give  up 
that  Bible.  I  arn  not  the  man  to  say  that  it  can  be  done, 
and  I  believe  if  this  is  necessary  to  a  compromise,  we  shall 
have  to  say,  "  No  Compromise."  We  cannot  give  up  that 
Bible  from  our  own  hands  and  the  hands  of  the  children 
of  this  Republic.  Mr.  Chairman,  we  must  go  a  little  far- 
ther. Suppose  we  did  now  give  up  the  Bible,  and  make 
a  common  selection  from  the  two  translations — the  Catho- 
lic and  our  own — suppose  we  made  a  common  selection 
about  which  we  all  agree  !  Why,  gentlemen,  such  a  com- 
promise was  made  across  the  water, — that  compromise  was 
agreed  to  by  a  majority  of  the  Irish  Catholic  Bishops,  but 


the  minority  appealed  to  the  Pope.    Now  the  gentleman 

is  mistaken  if  he  supposes  I  am  capable  of  appealing  to 

any  prejudices  improperly,  but  he  has  not  denied  this  fact ; 
and  I  expected  it  would  have  been  denied  or  some  how  ex- 
plained, how  such  an  appeal  was  made  from  that  country. 
Sir,  such  an  appeal  might  be  made  in  this  country  ;  and  if 
so,  in  all  candour  I  ask  whether  it  does  not  belong  to  a 
foreign  Potentate  to  say  whether  the  Bible  shall  be  read  in 
our  Common  Schools?  I  ask  if  they  can  escape  from  that 
position  ?  I  want  an  answer  to  that  ques  ion.  And  if 
there  be  a  foreign  power,  spiritual  or  otherwise,  to  say  that 
the  Bible  shall  not  be  read,  I  ask  if  that  power  may  not  say 
that  the  Constitution  and  the  Declaration  of  Independence 
shall  not  be  read  ?  I  mean  no  reflection.  This  matter 
has  come  out  in  evidence  here,  and  I  draw  from  it  what 
may  be  supposed  to  be  legitimate  conclusions.  The  gentle- 
men opposite  may  smile,  but  I  ask  if  they  can  escape  from 
these  conclusions.  I  know  there  are  many  of  the  Catholic 
laity  who  are  Americans  bv  birth,  and  many  by  adoption, 
who  would  settle  that  question  very  soon.  Though  the 
mitre  may  be  placed  by  a  foreign  power,  on  the  head  of 
him  that  wears  it,  I  know  there  is  a  feeling  in  the  Ameri- 
can bosom — be  it  Catholic  or  Protestant — that  will  not 
allow  a  foreign  Potentant  either  directly,  or  indirectly, 
to  ititerfere.  Now,  Mr.  President,  I  have  got  through 
all  I  propose  to  say  on  this  subject,  and  again  I  put  it  to 
vou,  s'iall  we  not  have  the  privilege  to  learn  our  little  fel- 
low citizens  to  read,  and  write,  and  cipher,  and  to  teach 
them  the  common  elements  of  Geography  and  History? 
Shall  we  be  prevented  by  a  conscientious  scruple  ?  Mr. 
Chairman,  I  feel  a  strong  desire  that  both  Protestants  and 
Catholics  sbou'd  be  brought  into  the  same  schools,  and  I 
see  in  such  a  circumstance,  great  and  wholesome,  and  be- 
neficial political  results.  When  a  stranger  comfs  here 
from  a  foreign  land,  where  he  has  been  oppressed,  I  am 
willing  to  grant  him  an  asylum,  and  to  say  that  he  shall 
have  all  the  benefits  of  this  land,  and  of  our  Constitution  ; 
and  that  if  he  has  been  oppressed,  that  he  has  come  to  a 
country  where  he  shall  be  oppressed  no  more.  All  I  ask 
is  that  he  shall  give  America  his  heart.  If  he  comes  with 
an  Irisa  heart,  let  it  become  an  American  heart;  let  him 
stand  by  America,  and  by  her  children,  enjoying  the  same 
rights  as  they  enjoy,  and  growing  up  with  them,  amalga- 
mate with  them,  and  interchanging  the  same  kind  and  be- 
nevolent feelings  together.  That  is  what  I  want.  I  want 
to  see  the  country  from  which  he  came  second  in  his  re- 
gard to  the  land  of  his  adoption,  to  the  land  of  his  children, 
and  I  want  those  children  so  brought  up  that  when  they 
become  men  they  shall  have  pure  American  feelings.  I 
hope,  sir,  they  will  not  be  taught  that  we  entertain  the  same 
feeling  here  that  orangemen,  and  Protebtanls,  entertain  in 
Ireland.  We  are  not  unfriendly  to  them  ;  our  children  are 
not  their  enemies;  let  us  then  grow  up  and  amalgamate  to- 
gether. I  dislike  any  system  that  would  cast  off  from 
American  ground  these  children  of  foreign  countries;  and 
I  r.sk  the  gentleman  if  they  cannot  come  in  and  place  their 
children  side  by  side  with  ours,  and  let  them  feel  thai  in 
the  Schools  there  are  no  partialities,  and  that  out  of  them 
they  may  go  to  their  own  chu  ch  and  bow  before  their  own 
altar.  But  for  civil  purposes  let  all  be  brought  up  to- 
gether. 

Mr.  Chairman,  there  is  another  very  plausible  argument 
presented  here.  They  tell  you  in  their  menu  rial  that  they 
will  engage  to  give  as  good  an  ordinary  secular  education 
as  the  public  Schools  can  give  for  the  same  money.  They 
propose  to  allow  their  Schools  to  be  visited  by  the  public 
authorities,  or  by  the  Trustees  themselves,  and  to  place 


them  under  some  general  supervision.  Now  there  are  two 
ways  of  insuring  the  fidelity  of  Trustees,  in  directing  the 
object  of  a  public  trust  towards  the  end  designed ;  one  is  by- 
supervision,  and  the  other  is  by  so  creating  the  trust,  as  to 
insure,  by  its  organization,  the  requisite  fidelity.  The  latter 
I  prefer.  Here  is  a  religious  society  whose  paramount 
purpose  is  religious  instruction  ;  if  to  that  be  superadded  a 
literary  education  it  will  be  subordinate  to  the  other  as  it 
ought ;  its  constant  tendency  will  be  to  neglect  the  literary 
education  for  the  purpose  of  promoting  the  other,  and  there- 
fore, the  object  of  the  legislature  will  most  likely  be  neg- 
lected. 

But  here  is  the  Public  School  Society,  created  for  one 
single  purpose — and  that  is,  education;  for  that  it  is  organ- 
ized, and  to  that  end  all  its  operations  tend.  But  if  it  had 
two  objects  in  view,  the  paramount  one  would  be  that  which 
would  receive  its  chief  attention  ;  the  other  and  subordinate 
one  would  r<  ceive  less.  If  you  entrust  this  business  of 
education  to  a  Religious  Society,  religion  will  be  para- 
mount and  literature  will  be  subordinate.  Let  that  subor- 
dinate one  be  paid  for  by  the  state,  and  it  would  be  in  their 
case  if  they  had  no  other  object.  Bui  gentlemen  the  ques- 
tion is,  will  you  desert  the  Public  School  Society,  and  take 
up  this  New  Society  ?  It  has  been  said  that  the  Public 
School  Society  is  a  monopoly.  In  the  country  the 
Trustees  are  chosen  by  the  people,  but  in  this  city,  owing 
to  its  peculiar  organization,  the  matter  is  left  to  the  super- 
intendence of  benevolent  individuals  who  are  voluntary 
agents.  They  receive  no  compensation  for  their  services, 
and  experience  has  shown  that  the  duties  have  been  bet'er 
discharged  by  that  system  than  by  any  other.  You  may 
go  to  the  Schools  in  i  he  state  and  examine  the  most  favoura- 
ble ones;  then  visit  the  Schools  in  this  city, and  the  educa- 
tion in  our  Schools  will  be  found  superior  to  that  in  the 
Common  Schools  elsewhere. 

This  society  is  called  a  corporation  :  but  it  is  a  corpo- 
ration which  is  bound  by  law  to  report  all  its  proceedings 
every  year  to  this  council,  and  at  stated  times  to  the  Legis- 
lature. It  is  a  corporation  of  which  the  members  of  this 
board  are  ex  officio  members.  It  is  a  corporation  which 
has  control  of  a  great  fund,  and  it  has  for  its  end  the  good 
of  the  state  ;  but  it  is  willing  that  its  real  estate  shall  be  trans- 
ferred to  this  corporation  whenever  the  public  good  re- 
quires it,  and  to  this  end  an  offer  has  long  since  been  made 
and  is  now  repeated.  But  if  we  are  to  have  this  Common 
School  system  of  education,  I  ask,  if  it  is  not  better  to 
have  it  under  the  supervision  01  men  of  business,  and  of 
high  character,  who  are-  willing  to  devote  their  leisure 
to  its  interests  ?  I  wish  to  call  your  attention  to  another 
subject.  This  fund  is  a  large  one;  $73,000  is  from  the 
state  a*id  compulsory  taxation;  .in  the  country,  as  ex- 
plained by  my  associate,  a  certain  sum  is  granted  by  the 
state  on  condition  that  an  equal  sum  is  added  to  the  School 
Fund,  by  a  tax  laid  on  the  people  themselves  who  re- 
ceive it.  But  independent  of  that,  our  citizens  came  and 
asked  to  be  taxed  someth'ng  more,  and  that  amount  is 
more  than  the  other  two.  But  it  must  be  recollected  when 
this  request  to  be  permitted  to  tax  themselves  still  farther 
was  made,  it  was  settled  and  determined  that  the  churches 
should  be  excluded.  When  that  was  settled  and  the 
Schools  were  mainly  under  the  supervision  of  the  Common 
School  Society,  that  society  got  up  petitions  for  this  addi- 
tional taxation,  and  because  confidence  was  placed  in  that 
society  the  taxation  was  not  opposed.  Now  if  we  revert 
back  to  the  Common  School  System,  this  must  come  back 
too;  for  I  affirm,  that  the  chief  consideration  which  induced 
the  petitioners — and  they  were  men  of  great  property 
among  them — to  sign  the  petition  asking  to  be  taxed  for 


the  purposes  of  education,  was  that  the  School  Society  was 
to  have  the  superintendence.  The  sum  of  873,000  was 
thus  raised  because  confidence  was  reposed  in  the  School 
Society,  as  antagonistic  of  those  Church  Societies. 

Now  perhaps  the  gentleman  may  ask,  if  the  system  is 
to  be  changed,  that  we  should  resort  to  the  same  course  as 
is  pursued  in  the  country,  where  the  people  elect  their  own 
commissioners  and  trustees.  But  if  we  do,  the  schools 
must  be  governed  on  the  same  principles  as  these,  and  the 
only  difference  will  be  in  the  managers.  And  if  it  is  to 
come  to  that  I  am  sure  these  Trustees  will  be  very  willing, 
for  it  is  to  them  a  source  of  great  vexation  to  be  compelled 
to  carry  on  this  controversy  for  such  a  period. 

They  are  very  unwilling  to  come  here  to  meet  their 
fellow  citizens  in  a  somewhat  hostile  manner.  They  have 
nothing  to  gain,  for  the  society  is  no  benefit,  to  them,  and 
they  give  da)  s  and  wei  ks  of  their  time,  without  recompence, 
to  the  discharge  of  the  duties  of  their  trust.  They  have 
nothing  to  gain,  but  they  have  arduous  duties  to  discharge  ; 
nor  have  they  anything  to  conceal.  They  report  every- 
thing to  this  Common  Council ;  and  therefore,  ti  e  public 
know  all  they  do,  and  if  they  are  not  found  faithful  to  the 
trust,  if  in  the  solemn  judgment  of  this  corporation  they  do 
not  answer  the  end  proposed,  elect  others  in  their  place,  and 
if  the  prayer  of  this  petition  be  granted  it  will  be  equiva- 
lent to  their  arraignment.  I  know  not  that  I  can  add  any- 
thing more  to  my  argument.  It  has  been  my  foitune 
during  the  last  eighteen  years,  from  time  to  time  to  argue 
this  question  before  other  boards  who  came  to  a  unanimous 
decision,  and  at  the  very  time  when  the  question  was  re- 
ferred to  the  Legislature  the  petitioners  were  supported  by 
a  Rev.  Gentleman  of  the  highest  respectability  of  that  day, 
and  by  lay  gentlemen  of  great  talent.  We  had  the  discus- 
sion here  until  eleven  and  twelve  o'clock  at  night,  and  the 
gentlemen  of  the  Common  Council — men  of  great  respecta- 
bility— denied  the  prayer  of  the  petition  and  the  public  sus- 
tained them  in  their  decision.  Our  Roman  Cat!. olic  friends 
come  now  with  the  same  principle  that  was  decided  then, 
and  I  hope,  Sir,  the  prayer  of  the  Petitioners  will  not  be 
granted. 

The  Rev.  Dr.  Bond  then  appeared  as  the  representative 
of  the  Methodist  Episcopal  Church,  but  he  gave  way  to 

The  Right  Rev.  Bishop  Hughes,  who  desired  to  make  a 
brief  reply  to  the  two  legal  gentlemen  who  had  addressed 
the  board.  He  said,  I  have  a  few  remarks  that  I  wish  to 
make,  partly  in  reference  to  myself  and  partly  to  my  prin- 
ciples, and  the  views  submitted  with  regard  to  those  prin- 
ciples ;  but  the  debate  has  taken  a  range  too  wide  and  too 
legal  for  me  to  pretend  to  follow  it  throughout.  I  am  not 
accustomed  to  the  niceties  of  legislation  or  the  manner  of 
interpreting  statutes  or  acts  of  the  Legislature,  but  to  sum 
up  the  whole  of  the  two  eloquent  addresses  made  by  the 
gentlemen  who  have  just  spoken,  they  amount  to  this,  that 
either  the  consciences  of  Catholics  must  be  crushed  and 
their  objections  resisted,  or  the  Public  School  System  must 
be  destroyed.  That  is  the  pith  of  both  their  observations. 
They  argue  that  there  must  be  either  one  or  the  other  of 
these  two  results,  and  those  gentlemen  are  inclined  to  ihe 
course  of  compelling  conscience  to  give  way,  they  being 
the  judge  of  our  consciences  which  they  wish  to  overrule; 
so  that  the  Public.  School  Society — and  I  do  not  desire  to 
detract  from  it  as  far  as  good  intentions  are  concerned — i 
shall  continue  to  dispose  of  the  Public  School  Fund  not- 
withstanding our  objections  and  the  reasoning  on  which 
they  are  based.  The  gentleman  who  last  spoke,  appeared 
to  imagine  that  I  wished  the  exclusion  of  the  Protestant 
Bible,  and  that,  for  the  benefit  of  Catholics,  I  laid  myself 
open  to  the  charge  of  enmity  to  the  word  of  God  ,  but  I 


desired  nothing  of  the  sort.    1  would  leave  the  Proteetant 

Bible  lor  those  that  reverence  it;  but  for  myself,  it  has  not 
my  confidence.  Another  obj  ction  which  he  made,  was  of 
a  peiso.  al  character  to  myself;  but  while  > hat  gentleman 
started  with  the  beautiful  rule  of  charity  to  others,  and  with 
a  lecture  on  the  propriety  of  retaining  our  station  in  life, 
and  the  impropriety  of  the  public  appeals  of  which  he  was 
pleased  to  speak,  I  regret  lhat  his  practice  was  not  in  ac- 
cordance with  his  precept — and  that  while  he  was  lectur- 
ing me  on  the  subject,  he  himself  should  have  sfone  beyond 
anything  which  proper  discussion  called  for.  If  I  attended 
those  meetings  it  was  because  I  felt  the  evil  of  the  present 
system  as  regards  us — not  its  evil  as  regaids  others;  and 
we  must  be  permitted  to  be  the  judge  of  our  own  duties,  and 
to  see  for  ourselves  while  we  accord  to  others  the  same  right 
for  themselves.  I  beg  to  disclaim  any  intention  to  over 
rule  this  community  or  to  bring  any  thing  from  Rome,  ex- 
cept to  those  who  believe  in  its  spiritual  authority.  Con- 
sequently all  those  remaiks  of  that  gentleman  have  been 
out  of  pluce;  and  for  the  rest  I  conceive  the  true  point  has 
not  been  touched.  Not  one  of  our  objections  or  scruples 
of  conscience  has  he  undertaken  to  analyze,  nor  the  grounds 
on  which  they  exist.  When  I  gave  those  reasons  for  our 
objections,  1  thought  some  argument  would  have  been 
urged  faiily  against  them,  but  the  only  end  the  gentleman 
appears  to  have  in  view,  is  the  preservation  of  I  he  School 
Society,  and  to  maintain  that  they  have  a  patent  right  to  the 
office.  That  I  know  is  his  object ;  but  I  did  not  expect  to 
hear  any  man  construing  the  law  as  that  its  advantages 
cannot  reach  us  unless  we  lay  down  and  sacrifice  our  con- 
sciences at  the  threshhold.  I  have  spoken  for  myself,  and 
I  have  disclaimed  all  high- handed  objects;  but  the  gentle- 
man insists  notwithstanding  the  phdge  which  we  have 
given,  that  in  spite  of  all,  we  shall  teach  cur  religion.  I 
disclaim  such  intentions,  and  [  do  not  think  it  fair  in  that 
gentleman  to  impute  intentions  which  we  disclaim.  The 
gentleman  has  drawn  a  beautiful  |  icture  of  Society  if  all 
could  live  in  harmony,  (I  would  it  could  be  reduced  to 
practice,)  whether  born  in  foreign  parts  or  in  this  countrv. 
But  if  all  could  be  brought  up  together — if  all  could  asso- 
ciate in  such  a  state  without  prejudice  to  the  public  welfare 
while  the  Protestants  use  such  books  as  those  to  which  we 
object,  it  could  only  be  by  the  Catholic  concealing  his  re- 
ligion, for  if  he  owns  it  he  will  be  called  a  "Papist."  The 
gentleman  says  that  one  of  the  books  to  which  we  object  is 
not  a  text  book  used  in  the  Schools ;  but,  if  not,  it  is  one  of 
the  books  placed  in  the  library  to  which  I  do  not  say  we 
contribute  more  than  others,  but  it  is  supported  at  the  |  ub- 
lic  expense,  to  which  Catholics  contribute  as  well  as  others. 
I  will  read  you  one  passage  and  leave  you  to  judge  for 
yourselves  what  will  be  its  effects  on  the  minds  of  our  chil- 
dren. The  work  is  entitled  "The  Irish  Heart."  and  the 
author  at  page  24,  is  dtsciibing  an  Irish  Catholic,  and  he 
says: — "As  for  old  Phclim  Maghee,  he  was  of  no  particu- 
lar relijjion." 

And  how  the  gentlemen  describe  the  Public  Schools,  but 
as  Schools  of  religion  and  no  religion.  They  say  they  crive 
rel  igious  instruction  :  but  again  they  say  it  is  not  religion, 
for  it  does  not  vitiate  their  claim. 

"As  for  old  Phelim  Maghee,  he  was  no  of  particular  religion.'' 

"  When  Phelim  had  laid  up  a  good  stock  of  sins,  he  now  and  then, 
went  over  to  Killarncy,  ol  a  Sabbath  morning,  and  got  relaaf  by  con- 
Jissing  thein  out  o'  the  way,  as  he  used  to  express  it,  and  sealed  up  his 
soul  w  ith  a  wafer." 

That  is  the  term  they  apply  to  our  doctrine  of  transub- 
stantiation,  and  they  want  us  to  associate  and  to  enjoy  every 
thing  in  harmony  when  they  thus  assail  our  religious 
right. 


•'  and  returned  quite  invigorated,  for  the  perpetration  of 

new  offences.'' 

Now,  suppose  Catholic  children  hear  this  in  the  com' 
pa  ny  of  their  Protestant  associates  !  They  will  be  subjec1 
to  the  ridicule  of  their  companions,  and  the  consequence 
will  be  that  their  domestic  and  religious  attachments  will 
become  weakened,  they  will  become  ashamed  of  their  re- 
ligion, and  they  will  grow  up  Nothingarians. 

But  again,  on  page  120,  when  t peaking  of  intemperance, 
we  find  the  following  :— 

"  It  i-  more  probable,  however,  a  part  of  the  papal  system." 

And  this,  notwithstanding  all  that  Father  Matthew  has 

done. 

"  For,  when  drunkenness  shall  have  been  done  away,  and  with  it, 
that  just,  relative  proportion  of  all  indolence,  ignorance,  crime,  misery, 
and  superstition,  of  which  it  is  the  putative  parent;  then  truly  a  much 
smaller  portion  of  mankind  may  be  expected  to  follow  the  dark  lantern 
of  the  Romish  religion." 

"  That  religion  is  uioct  likely  to  find  professors  among  the  frivo- 
lous and  the  wicked,  w !  x-h  by  a  species  of  ecclesiastical  legerde- 
main can  persuade  the  biuner,  that  lie  is  going  ie  heaven,  when  he 
is  going  directly  to  hell.  By  a  refined  and  complicated  system  of 
Jesuitry,  and  prelatical  juggling,  the  papal  see  has  obtained  its  pre 
sent  extensive  influence  through  the  woild." 

And  unless  we  send  our  children  to  imbibe  these  lessons 
we  are  going  to  overturn  the  system  !  But  is  that  the  true 
conc'usion  to  which  the  gentleman  should  come,  from  our 
petition?  Is  that  reasoning  from  facts  and  the  evidence 
before  their  eyes?  I  have  promised  not  to  detain  the 
board,  and  therefore,  I  would  merely  say,  if  I  have  at- 
tended those  meetings  it  was  not  with  the  views  the  gen- 
tleman has  imputed  to  me,  nor  to  distinguish  myself  as 
has  been  insinuated.  I  have  taken  good  care  to  banish 
politics  from  those  meetings,  and  if  I  have  mentioned  the 
number  of  Catholics,  or  of  their  children.it  was  to  show 
how  far  this  system  fills  short  of  the  end  which  the 
Legislature  had  in  view.  I  disclaim  utterly  and  entirely 
the  intention  imputed  to  me  by  the  gentleman,  but  I  will 
not  longer  detain  the  board. 

Mr.  Mott,  one  of  the  Public  School  Trustees,  with  the 
permission  of  the  board,  explained  the  manner  in  which 
the  book  which  the  Right  Rev.  prelate  had  last  alluded 
too,  had  found  its  way  into  the  Schools.  It  was  one  of  a 
series  of  tales  published  by  the  temperance  society ;  and 
when  a  committee  was  appointed  for  filling  the  library, 
their  attention  was  called  to  the  first  number  of  the  series: 
they  read  two  or  three  of  them  which  had  come  from  the 
press,  and  as  they  appeared  to  be  adapted  to  the  reading  of 
children  the  committee  admitted  them,  and  by  some  mis- 
lake  it  was  supposed  that  all  the  other  volumes  of  the 
same  series  and  under  the  same  title  were  ordered  too,  and 
they  were  sent  in  as  they  issued  from  the  press  after  that 
period,  and  in  this  way  the  book  in  question  had  crept 
in.  But  this  being  discovered  by  a  Catholic  trustee,  it 
was  withdrawn,  and  of  this  the  gentlemen  were  fully  ap- 
prized, and  therefore  he  asked  if  it  was  generous  or  just  to 
quote  that  book,  under  these  circumstances,  to  strengthen 
the  cause  of  the  Catholics. 

The  Right  Rev.  Bishop  Hughes  assured  the  gentle- 
man that  he,  until  that  moment,  had  not  heard  of  the  books 
having  been  withdrawn. 

The  Rev.  Dr.  Bond  then  again  rose  to  address  the 
boird  as  the  representative  of  the  Methodist  Episcopal 
Church,  but  as  it  was  now  ten  o'clock,  it  was  proposed  by 
one  of  the  aldermen  to  take  a  recess  until  Friday  after- 
noon at  four  o'clock,  which  was  agreed  too,  and  the  board 
adjourned. 


29 


SECOND  DAY. 

The  Board  re-assembled  at, four  o'clock  on  Friday  the 
30th  October,  by  adjournment  from  the  previous  day, 
but  some  time  elapsed  before  the  debate  could  be  resum- 
ed in  consequence  of  the  difficulty  which  the  gentlemen 
who  took  part  in  the  proceedings,  found  in  gaining  an 
entrance  to  the  Council  Chamber  through  the  greatly  in- 
creased crowd  of  persons  who  were  anxious  and  strug- 
gling to  be  present.  After  the  room  had  been  filled  to 
overflowing,  many  hundreds  were  still  excluded  who 
desired  admission;  but  the  room  was  filled  to  its  utmost 
capacity,  even  to  standing  room  in  the  windows,  and 
those  still  crowding  round  the  entrance  door  were  obliged 
to  endure  the  disappointment.  Davtd  Graham,  Esq.  Al 
derman  of  the  Fifteenth  Ward,  presided  on  this  occasion 
as  the  locum  tcnens  of  the  President,  Mr.  Alderman 
Purdy,  who  however  was  present  seated  with  the  Alder- 
men. There  were  also  present  many  distinguished  and 
Reverend  gentlemen  of  various  denominations  of  this 
City,  besides  those  who  took  part  in  the  discussion.  Dr. 
Brownlee  was  seated  near  Dr.  Bond  during  that  gentle- 
man'3  speech,  but  he  did  not  attempt  to  address  the 
Board. 

The  Rev.  Dr.  Pise  and  other  Reverend  gentlemen  of 
the  Catholic  Church,  were  seated  with  the  Right  Rev. 
Bishop  Hughes  and  the  Very  Rev.  Dr.  Power,  and  many 
preachers  of  the  Methodist  Episcopal  Church,  were  in 
the  vicinity  of  the  orator  by  whom  they  were  represent- 
ed. 

When  all  the  gentlemen  were  seated,  the  President 
called  upon  the  Rev.  Dr.  Bond,  of  the  Methodist  Epis- 
copal Church  to  proceed  with  the  debate  on  behalf  of 
the  remonstrants  of  that  body. 

The  Rev.  Dr.  Bond,  spoke  as  follows  : — 
Mr.  Prestdext  and  Gentlemen  of  the  Common 
CouNdL, — It  may  be  necessary  here,  in  the  outset,  that 
I  should,  on  the  part  of  those  that  I  represent,  disclaim 
all  hostility  to  our  fellow  citizens  who  have  made  their 
claim  to  this  Council.  To  them  we  have  no  hostility, 
nay  we  have  no  prejudice  against  them  as  a  body,  and 
of  any  hostility  that  may  be  found  in  the  memorial  which 
we  have  presented  to  this  body,  the  address  of  the  Right 
Rev.  gentleman  who  opened  this  discussion  last  night, 
will  furnish  us  with  a  thorough  explanation,  for  when  he 
adverted  to  that  part  of  his  memorial  which  related  to 
the  Society  of  Friends,  he  wished  it  to  be  expressly  un- 
derstood that  he  spoke  of  their  creed  apart  from  them- 
selves. Now  this  is  the  explanation  we  wish  to  make  of 
our  memorial  which  we  have  presented  to  this  Council. 
We  speak  of  the  creed  of  the  Roman  Catholic  Church 
apart  from  the  Roman  Catholics  themselves.  We  are 
bound,  not  only  by  the  obligations  of  social  life,  but  by 
our  common  Christianity  to  extend  to  them  all  the  benev- 
olence which  we  think  ought  to  be  exercised  towards 
any  other  portion  of  our  fellow  citizens.  It  may  be  asked 
why  we  adverted  to  their  creed  at  all.  Because  it  was 
wholly  unavoidable.  We  could  not  do  otherwise,  be- 
cause it  was  on  its  peculiarities  that  they  rested  their 
claim  to  a  portion  of  this  Fund — it  was  on  their  peculiar 
creed  that  they  rested  their  scruples  against  sending  their 
children  to  the  Public  Schools.  We  could  therefore,  no 
otherwise,  resist  their  claim  but  by  adverting  to  those 
peculiarities.  And  it  is  complained  that  we  adverted  to 
them  with  too  little  respect.  Now  sir,  we  must  be  allow- 
ed to  say  that  whatever  there  is  of  disrespect  to  our  Roman 
Catholic  fellow  citizens  in  this  memorial,  they  must 


allow  something  for  the  provocation.  Sir,  we  r>ad  es- 
teemed the  Public  Schools  a  common  benefit,  and  we 
had  made  sacrifices  to  the  system.  We  too  should  have 
been  glad  if  we  could  have  educated  our  children  in  our 
own  way,  and  in  our  sectarian  tenets,  or  prejudices  if 
you  will  ;  but  when  we  found  the  legislature  providing 
an  education  that  should  be  universal,  we  brought  all  our 
sectarian  feelings  and  placed  them  on  the  altar  of  the 
public  welfare  And  when  we  found  the  Public  Schools 
which  we  esteemed  so  great  a  good,  about  to  be  destroy- 
ed by  the  sectarian  prejudices  of  another  denomination, 
we  were  alarmed,  and  we  stated  in  our  memorial  that 
we  were  alarmed  ;  and  was  there  no  cause  for  alarm  ? 
Why  the  public  gatherings  which  were  so  feelingly  al- 
luded to  last  night,  were  cause  of  alarm  ?  Was  there 
not  cause  for  alarm  when,  at  a  time  of  general  excite- 
ment and  political  strife,  there  were  these  gatherings  of 
the  Catholi«s, — and  was  there  not  cause  to  fear  that  their 
object  was  to  wrest  from  the  Common  Council  by  intimi- 
dation, what  they  had  failed  to  obtain  by  reason  and  ar- 
gument ?  Such  were  our  fears;  but  really  sir,  the  com- 
plaint of  want  of  respect  in  our  memorial,  is  wholly  out 
of  place.  Why,  the  gentleman  reminds  me  of  a  man 
who  while  deliberately  skinning  a  living  eel,  cursed  the 
"  varmint"  because  it  would  not  hold  still.  Why,  sir, 
this  skinning  is  a  serious  matter ;  I  hope,  however,  that 
we  shall  be  allowed  the  apology  which  the  Right  Rev. 
gentleman  made  for  himself  and  for  those  associated  with 
him  when  speaking  of  the  Society  of  Friends  and  their 
creed — 

The  Right  Rev.  Bishop  Hughes  interposed  and  said 
he  had  not  spoken  of  the  creed  of  either  the  Society  of 
Friends  or  of  the  Methodists :  he  did  not  suppose  this 
body  was  sitting  in  judgment  on  creeds. 

The  Rev.  Dr.  Bond  continued.  I  admit  that  when 
the  Reverend  gentleman  spoke  of  the  Society  of  Friends, 
he  did  not  speak  of  them  by  name.  Well,  but  the 
Right  Rev.  gentleman  says, — and  he  contends  it  has  an 

important   bearing   on   this   matter  that   we  have 

made  a  false  issue — that  we  charge  that  the  applicants 
require  a  portion  of  this  public  money  for  sectarian  pur- 
poses, and  this  he  says  is  "  a  false  issue."  If  this  be  true, 
it  will  have  an  important  bearing  on  the  question;  but 
we  affirm  that  it  is  not  a  false  issue :  it  is  the  true  issue; 
there  can  he  no  other  issue.  It  will  be  remembered  sir, 
that  we  have  only  now  to  justify  what  we  have  alleged 
in  our  memorial;  we  are  not  going  into  the  merits  of  the 
legal  part  ofthe  question,  for  we  are  not  of  the  legal  profes- 
sion; and  after  what  we  have  heard  from  the  legal  gentle- 
men in  this  discussion,  it  cannot  be  expected.  But  we  do 
affirm  that  the  issue  we  in  common  with  the  Trustees  of 
the  Public  School  Society  plead — that  this  money  is  ap- 
plied for,  for  Sectarian  purposes — is  the  true  issue. 
How  do  we  prove  it  '.  It  has  been  one  leading  objection 
to  the  Public  Schools,  that  no  religion  is  taught  in  them. 
Well,  it  is  also  alleged  that  no  religion  can  be  taught 
there,  unless  we  teach  sectarianism.  Now  if  it  be  com- 
plained on  the  part  of  our  Roman  Catholic  fellow  citi- 
zens that  no  religion  is  taught  in  these  schools,  surely 
they  don't  mean  to  keep  schools  in  which  they  will  teach 
no  religion.  We  take  them  to  be  honest  in  what  they 
say,  and  I  hope  that  is  not  "a  false  issue  "  They 
allege  that  no  religion  is  taught,  and  that  none  can  he 
taught  without  teaching  sectarianism.  Now  we  take  it 
for  granted,  that  they  wtll  not  keep  schools  in  which  no 
religion  is  taught,  or  why  do  they  object  to  the  Public 


30 


Schools?   And  if  they  teach  religion,  it  must  be sec- 

tarianism,  for  they  themselves  allege  that  no  religion 
can  be  taught  without  teaching  sectarianism  ;  and  if 
so,  then  will  not  the  public  money  be  used  for  sectarian 
purposes  ?  There  is  only  one  way  to  escape  from  this 
position.  What  claim  may  he  set  up  here,  I  know  not, 
but  elsewhere  it  is  alleged,  that  they  teach  the  Roman 
Catholic  Religion,  and  thai  is  not  sectarianism,  inasmuch 
as  it  is  the  only  true  Religion. 

This  may  be  a  salvo  for  them  but  it  is  not  for  us. 
They  will  not  expect  that  other  denominations  will  ad- 
mit that  the  Roman  Catholic  is  the  only  true  religion, 
and  that  it  is  not  sectarianism.  Rut  if  they  do,  and  if 
they  still  say  that  theirs  is  the  only  true  church, — and  if 
they,  only  a  branch  of  the  common  -stock — only  one  of 
the  many  sects  of  our  common  Christianity,  teach  (  alh- 
olicism  there,  they  teach  sectarianism  as  much  as  Meth- 
odists would  do  if  they  had,  one  of  these  Schools  in 
which  they  taught  Methodism.  And  if  they  teach  Cath- 
olic sectarianism  to  their  children,  will  not  the  money 
they  claim,  if  allowed,  be  applied  to  sectarian  purposes  1 
This  is  all  wo  said,  sir,  and  is  this  "  a  false  issue  !"  We 
say  it  is  the  true  issue;  there  can  be  no  other  issue,  for 
there  can  be  no  possible  objection  to  this  conclusion. 
So  much  for  "the  issue,"  sir. 

But  it  was  complained,  sir,  that  we  have  said  the  ar- 
guments by  which  their  application  on  a  former  occasion 
was  resisted,  were  "  clear,  cogent,  and  unanswerable." 
We  grant  that  this  is  a  matter  of  opinion  ;  we  say 
when  we  read  them  in  the  memorial  of  the  Trustees  of 
the  Public  Schools,  we  thought  them  clear,  cogent,  and 
conclusive;  but  we  accord  to  the  gentleman  the  right  to 
form  his  own  opinion,  and  can  he  complain  if  we  claim 
the  same  privilege  which  we  accord  to  him  ?  But  it  was 
complained  that  we  had  alleged  that  "  neither  the  con- 
stitution of  the  State,  nor  the  public  welfare,  are  to  be 
regarded,  when  they  stand  in  the  way  of  Roman  Catho- 
lic sectarianism  and  exclusiveness."  Why,  is  it  not  on 
the  ground  of  Sectarian  exclusiveness  that  they  make 
this  claim  ?  I  take  it  for  granted  that  if  they  cannot 
conscientiously  send  their  children  to  the  Public  Schools, 
their  conscientious  objection  is  founded  on  their  creed. 
There  is  something  of  peculiarity  in  their  creed,  for  they 
alone  of  all  the  denominations,  have  scruples  on  this  sub- 
ject; and  we  did  not  then  intend  to  give  offence  by  the 
term  sectarian  exclusiveness.  But  again,  it  is  complained 
that  we  alleged  that  "  It  must  be  manifest  to  the  Common 
Council,  that  if  the  Roman  Catholic  claims  are  granted, 
all  the  other  christian  denominations  will  urge  their 
claims  for  a  similar  appropriation,  and  that  the  money 
raised  for  education  by  a  general  tax,  will  be  solely  appli- 
ed to  the  purposes  of  proselytism,  through  the  medium 
of  sectarian  schools."  And  can  any  thing  be  clearer  ? 
Indeed  the  gentleman  does  not  take  particular  exception 
to  this.  "  That  the  money  raised  for  education  by  a 
general  tax  will  be  solely  applied  to  the  purposes  of 
proselytism!"  Why,  if  they  are  honest  in  their  preju- 
dices for  their  form  of  worship,  and  if  they  believe  their 
own  religion  the  best,  they  will  endeavor  to  impart  their 
own  views  and  all  the  principles  which  they  advocate  to 
those  they  take  under  their  own  care.  And  what  is  this 
but  proselytism?  The  word  is  not  used  offensively  for 
we  only  mean  by  making  proselytes,  the  making  con- 
verts to  their  own  faith.  But  we  had  said  "If  this  were 
done,  would  it  be  the  price  of*  peace  ?  or  would  it  not 
throw  the  apple  of  discord  into  the  whole  Christian  com- 


munity ?  Should  we  agree  in  the  division  of  the  spoils  ? 

Would  each  sect  be  satisfied  with  the  portion  allotted  to 
it?"  Is  there  any  thing  offensive  in  thisquestion  ?  Might 
we  not  honestly  differ  respecting  the  amount  appropriated 

to  us  severally  ? 

"  We  venture  to  say,  that  the  sturdy  claimants  who  now  beset 
the  Council,  would  not  be  satisfied  with  much  less  than  the  lion's 
share  and  we  are  sure  that  there  are  other  Protestant  denominations 
besides  ourselves,  who  would  not  patiently  submit  to  the  exaction." 

And  this  has  been  spoken  of  sir,  by  the  Right  Rev. 
gentleman  as  though  we  had  threatened  a  rebellion! 
Is  it  necessary  that  we  should  Btir  up  rebellion  to  carry 
out  all  we  said  ?    We  only  said  "  we  are  sure  that  there 
are  other  Protestant  denominations  besides  ourselves, 
who  would  not  patiently  submit  to  the  exaction."  Have 
the  Catholics  submitted  patiently  to  what  they  consider 
a  grievance  ?  Certainly  not,  for  they  have  reiterated 
their  claim  again  and  again  with  a  perseverance,  which 
in  a  good  cause  is  praiseworthy.    But  we  did  not  say  we 
would  rebel ;  we  said  we  would  not  "  patiently  submit," 
nor  should  we  be  patient  until  we  obtained  a  legal  remedy. 
But  we  have  said  "  when  all  the  christian  sects  shall  be 
satisfied  with  their  individual  share  of  the  Public  Fund, 
what  is  to  become  of  those  children  whose  parents  be- 
long to  none  of  these  sects,  and  who  cannot  conscien- 
tiously allow  them  to  be  educated  in  the  peculiar  dogmas 
of  any  one  of  them  '.  The  different  committees  who  on  a 
foimer  occasion  approached  your  hon.  body,  have  shown, 
that  to  provide  schoois  for  these  only,  would  require  lit- 
tle less  than  is  now  expedded;  and  it  requires  little 
arithmetic  to  show  that  when  the  religious  sects  have 
taken  all,  nothing  will  remain  for  those  who  have  not 
yet  been  able  to  decide,  which  of  the  Christian  denom- 
inations to  prefer.    It  must  be  plain  to  every  impartial 
observer,  that  the  applicants  are  opposed  to  the  whole 
system  of  public  school  instruction  "  Mow  the  gentleman 
admits  it — he  says  it  is  obviously  true,  that  when  all  is 
taken  nothing  would  remain.    And  would  not  the  sects 
take  all  ?    Who  else  would  there  be  to  take  it  ?  And 
when  they  had  taken  all,  nothing  would  remain.  But 
we  have  alluded  to  a  large  body  who  would  remain  to  be 
educated,  when  we  have  no  money  left  for  that  purpose. 
Our  Roman  Catholic  brethren  claim  to  be  one-fifth  of  the 
population.     We  shall  not  dispute  this.    But  when  the 
Right  Uev.  gentleman  alluded  to  the  statement  that  six 
Catholic  teachers  were  employed  in  the  Public  Schools, 
he  disputed  five  out  of  the  six,  and  said  that  there  was 
but  one  that  deserved  the  name.    Now  if  you  take  these 
six  teachers  as  a  fair  sample  of  this  one  fifth  of  the  popu- 
lation which  is  nominally  Catholic,  how  many  would  be 
left  that  are  really  Catholic?  and  how  many  would  on 
similar  principles  of  calculation  really  belong  to  any  of 
the  other   sects    who    profess   to    belong   to  them? 
But  again,  allowing  that  all  are  Israel  that  are  of  Israel — 
that  all  are  christian  that  profess  to  be  christian — what 
portion  of  the  City  of  New-York  is  there  that  professes 
to  belong  to  any  sect  at  all?    Not  one  half  I  arn  sure. 
Well  what  becomes  of  the  children  of  those  who  belong 
to  none  of  these  sects?    When  the  money  is  distributed 
among  the  sects  "what  is  to  become  of  those  cnildren 
whose  parents  belong  to  none  of  these  sects  and  who 
cannot  conscientiously  allow  them  to  be  educated  in  the 
peculiar  dogmas  of  any  one  of  them  ?"    Now,  sir,  the 
Committees  of  the  Public  School  Society  expressly  tell 
us,  that  it  would  require  little  less  than  the  present  ap- 
propriation to  provide  for  these  ODly,  and  why?  Be- 
cause the  expense  of  tuition  is  not  in  proportion  to  the 


31 


number  taught.  When  you  have  provided  what  is  ne- 
cessary for  a  given  number,  a  great  addition  may  be 
made  without  augmenting  the  expense  at  all;  and  thus 
a  great  expense  will  be  incurred  for  those  who  are  of  no 
denomination.  But  we  shall  advert  to  this  hereafter. — 
Sir,  particular  exception  has  been  taken  to  our  memorial, 
and  the  gentleman  did  us  the  honor  to  take  it  up  seriatim, 
paragragh  by  paragraph  ;  and  therefore  it  may  be  requi- 
site that  I  should  thus  follow  him.  1  now  then  pass  to 
another  of  the  condemned  passages  which  it  contains  : — 

"  We  are  sorry  that  the  reading  of  the  Bible  in  the  public  schools, 
without  note  or  commentary,  is  offensive  to  them  ;  but  we  cannoi 
allow  the  holy  scriptures  to  be  accompanied  with  their  notes  and 
commentaries,  and  to  be  put  into  the  hands  of  the  children,  who 
may  hereafter  be  the  rulers  and  legislators  of  our  beloved  country  ; 
because,  among  other  bad  things  taught  in  these  commentaries,  is  to 
be  found  the  lawfulness  of  murdering  heretics ;  and  the  unqalified 
submission  in  all  matters  of  conscience  to  the  Roman  Catholic 
Church." 

Sir,  we  confess  if  we  march  to  our  object,  it  must  be 
by  a  plain  road.  We  are  a  plain  people,  but  we  com- 
promise nothing  on  the  subject  of  religion.  The  Right 
Reverend  gentleman  denied  that  such  are  the  contents 
of  their  books,  and  to  confirm  his  opinion,  he  offers  to 
bet  me  a  thousand  dollars.  Sir,  the  Right  Reverend 
gentleman  must  excuse  me.  He  tells  us  our  religion  is 
a  young  religion.  Be  it  so  sir,  but  our  Church  is  old 
enough  to  teach  us  the  sinfulness  of  betting.  Sir,  I  have 
been  taught,  as  one  of  the  primary  principles  of  morals, 
that  it  is  sinful  to  take  my  neighbor's  money  without  an 
equivalent.  Now,  should  I  accept  the  gentleman's  of- 
fer and  cover  his  thousand  dollars,  he,  or  else  I,  should 
take  the  money  of  the  other  without  an  equivalent.  It 
may  be  conformable  with  the  creed  of  the  Right  Rev. 
gentleman,  but  he  must  aliow  me  to  have  my  "  consci- 
entious scruples,"  and  I  shall  accord  the  same  to  him. 
But  if  I  do  not  take  up  his  bet  I  will  try  to  do  better. 
We  have  said  in  our  memorial  that  their  commentaries 
teach  the  lawfulness  of  murdering  heretics.  That  is  the 
first  step.  Now  we  are  bound  to  sustain  this;  at  least 
we  are  bound  to  show  this  Common  Council  on  what  au- 
thority we  state  this.  We  are  bound  to  submit  our  au- 
thority to  the  Common  Council,  and  then  any  gentleman 
will  be  able  to  make  up  his  own  mind  on  the  subject.  I 
hold  in  my  hand,  sir,  what  is  called  "The  Rhemish  New 
Testament,"  and  it  is  proper  that  I  should  here  say,  that 
we  have  not  said  in  our  memorial,  that  these  Catholic  Com- 
mentaries have  received  the  sanction  of  the  proper  au- 
thorities of  that  church.  We  said  no  such  thing.  We 
said  Catholic  Commentaries,  and  I  know  of  no  Commen- 
taries among  Protestants,  that  have  received  the  sanc- 
tion of  a  Protestant  Church;  and  yet,  do  we  not  call 
them  Protestant  in  contradistinction  to  Catholic  Com- 
mentaries ?  All  we  have  then  to  prove,  is  this,  that  this 
Rhemish  New  Testament  is  a  Catholic  New  Testament, 
written  and  published  by  Roman  Catholics,  and  with 
such  sanctions  as  ordinarily  obtain  among  the  proper 
ministers  of  the  church.  It  may  be  alleged  that  it  is 
necessary  to  have  the  sanction  of  His  Holiness,  or  the 
Council;  but  all  I  contend  for,  is,  that  it  has  been  circu- 
lated among  Catholics,  that  it  was  translated  for  that 
purpose,  and  is  therefore  a  Catholic  Commentary.  That 
is  all  we  contend  for.  We  do  not  insist  that  the  Right 
Rev.  gentleman,  or  any  Church  Council,  or  His  Holiness 
himself  countenances  it-  We  could  not  summon  His 
Holiness  to  testify  on  the  subject;  but  in  order  to  ascertain 
the  weight  of  the  historical  record  of  that  church,  we 


tmust  take  it  as  it  is  received  by  the  church  itself.  Now 
this  book — the  Rhemish  New  Testament  says  : — 

"  The  Douay  Bible  is  usually  so  called,  because  although  the  New 
Testament  was  first  translated  and  published  at  Rheims,  yet  the  Old 
Testament  was  printed  some  years  after  at  Douay  ;  the  English 
Jesuits  having  removed  their  monastery  from  Rheims  to  Douay, 
before  their  version  of  the  Old  Testament  was  completed.  In  the 
year  1816,  an  edition,  including  both  the  Douay  Old,  and  the  Rhem- 
ish New  Testament,  was  issued  at  Dublin,  containing  a  large  num- 
ber of  comments,  replete  with  impiety,  irreligion,  and  the  most 
fiery  persecution." 

The  Right  Rev.  Bishop  Hughes.  From  what  do  you 
read  ? 

The  Rev.  Dr.  Bond.  I  read  from  the  second  para- 
graph of  the  "  Introductory  Address  to  Protestants,"  of 
an  edition  of  the  Rhemish  Testament  published  in  New 
York.  It  is  attested  by  gentlemen  of  the  highest  repu- 
tation in  this  country — by  men  that  will  compare  in  char- 
acter with  any  gentlemen — Protestant  or  Catholic— in 
any  country  ;  and  they  insist  it  is  a  true  republication  of 
that  New  Testament  which  was  published  at  Rheims  in 
1582. 

"  That  edition  was  published  under  the  direction  of  all  the  digni- 
taries of  the  Roman  Hierarchy  in  Ireland ;  and  about  three  hundred 
others  of  the  most  influential  subordinate  Priests.  The  notes  which 
urged  the  hatred  and  murder  of  Protestants,  attracted  the  attention 
of  the  British  churches  ;  and  to  use  the  words  of  T.  Hartwell  Horne, 
that  edition  of  the  Rhemish  Testament  printed  at  Dublin  in  1816, 
"  corrected  and  revised  and  approved  by  Dr.  Troy,  Roman  Catholic 
Archbishop  of  Dublin,  was  reviewed  by  the  British  Critic,  vol.  8, 
page  276 — 308  ;  New  Series  ;  and  its  dangerous  tenets  both  civil  and 
religious  were  exposed." 

"  This  publication,  with  many  others  of  a  similar  character,  pro- 
duced so  great  an  excitement  in  Britain,  that  finally  several  of  the 
most  prominent  of  the  Irish  Roman  Prelates  were  called  before  the 
English  Parliament  to  prove  their  own  work.  Then,  and  upon  oath, 
with  all  official  solemnity,  they  peremptorily  disclaimed  the  volumes 
published  by  their  own  instigation,  and  under  their  own  super- 
vision and  auspices,  as  books  of  no  authority ;  because  they  had  not 
been  ratified  by  the  Pope,  and  received  by  the  whole  Papal  Church."' 

Now  have  we  made  any  mistake  in  calling  this  a  Cath- 
olic Commentary  ?  It  must  be  admitted  we  have  some 
ground  for  it.  And  now  for  some  of  the  "Annotations" 
to  show  the  ground  we  have  for  alleging  that  they  do 
teach  the  lawfulness  of  murdering  heretics. 

"  And  the  servants  said  to  him,  wilt  thou  we  go  and  gather  it 
up  ?" 

Mr.  Alderman  Graham  (Chairman.)  Will  the  speak- 
er give  the  page. 

The  Rev  Dr.  Bond.  The  44th  page,  and  the  2Sth 
verse  of  the  13th  chapter  of  Matthew. 

"  And  he  said,  No ;  lest  perhaps  gathering  up  the  cockle,  you 
may  root  up  the  wheat  also  together  with  it  " 

Now  for  the  Commentary. 

"  The  good  must  tolerate  the  evil,  when  it  is  so  strong  that  it  can- 
not be  redressed  without  danger  and  disturbance  of  the  whole 
Church,  and  commit  the  matter  to  God's  judgment  in  the  latter  day. 
Otherwise  where  ill  men,  be  they  Heretics  or  other  malefactors,  may 
be  punished  or  suppressed  without  disturbance  and  hazard  of  the 
good,  they  may  and  ought  by  public  authority,  either  spiritual  or 
temporal,  to  be  chastised  or  executed." 

I  quote  from  the  9th  chapter  of  St.  Luke,  page  10S. 

•'  And  when  his  disciples  James  and  Ji>hn  hi  d  sp'  n  it,  they  said. 
Lord  wilt  thou  we  say  that  (ire.  come  down  from  heav  n  and  consume 
them  ?  And  turning,  he  rebuked  them,  saying,  you  know  not  of  what 
spirit  you  are." 

Now  for  the  "  Annotation." 

"  Not  justice  nor  all  rigorous  punishment  of  sinners  is  here  forbid- 
den, nor  Elias'  fact  reprehended,  nor  the  Church  or  Christian  Pimrrs 
blamed  for  puttine  heretics  to  death  :  but  that  none  of  these  slmild  be 
done  for  di  sire  of  our  particular  revenue,  or  without  discre  ion,  and 
regard  of  their  amendment,  and  example  to  oiheri.    '1  heiefore  Peter 


used  his  power  upon  Ananias  and  Sophira,  when  he  struck  them  both 

down  to  death  for  defrauding  the  Church." 

I  quote  from  the  1 1 6th  page,  the  23d  verse  of  the  1 4th 
chapter  of  St.  Luke. 

"  And  the  Lord  said  to  the  servant,  go  forth  into  the  ways  and 
hedges :  and  compel  them  to  enter,  that  my  iiouse  may  be  filled." 

Now  for  the  Commentary. 

"The  vehement  persuasion  that  God  useth,  both  externally  by  force 
of  his  word  and  miracles,  and  internally  by  his  grace,  to  bring  us  unto 
him,  is  called  compelling:  not  that  he  forceth  any  to  come  to  him 
against,  their  wills,  but  that  he  can  alter  and  mollify  a  hard  heart, 
and  make  him  willing  that  before  would  not.  Augustine  also  refer- 
eth  this  compelling  to  the  penal  laws  which  Catholic  Princes  do 
justly  use  against  Heretics  and  Schismatics,  proving  that  they  who 
arc  by  their  former  profession  in  Uaptisin,  subject  to  the  Catholic 
Church,  and  are  departed  from  the  same  after  Sects,  may  and  ought 
to  be  compelled  into  the  unity  and  society  of  the  universal  church 
again :  and  therefore,  in  this  sense,  by  the  two  former  parts 
of  the  parables,  the  Jews  first,  and  secondly  the  Gentiles,  that  never 
believed  before  in  Christ,  were  invited  by  fair  sweet  means  only : 
but  by  the  third,  such  are  invited  a*  the  Church  of  God  hath  power 
over,  because  they  promised  in  baptism,  and  therefore  are  to  be  re- 
voked not  only  by  gentle  means,  but  by  just  punishment  also." 

I  quote  from  the  Annotations  of  the  23d  verse  of  the 
20th  chapter  of  St.  John. 

"  The  earthly  Princes  indeed  have  also  power  to  bind,  but  the 
bodies  only :  but  that  bond  of  Priests  wbicn  I  speak  of,  toucheth 
the  very  soul  itself,  and  rcacheth  even  to  the  heavens  :  insomuch, 
that  whatsoever  the  Priests  shall  do  beneath,  the  self-same  God  doth 
ratify  above,  and  the  sentence  of  the  servants  of  the  Lord  doth  con- 
firm, for  indeed  what  else  is  this  than  that  the  power  of  all  heavenly 
things  is  granted  them  of  God  ?" 

I  quote  from  page  214,  verse  11,  chapter  25  of  the 
Acts. 

"  I  appeal  to  Cesar." 
This  is  the  Annotation. 

"  If  Paul  both  to  save  himself  from  whipping  and  from  death 
sought  by  the  Jews,  doubted  not  to  cry  for  honor  of  the  Roman 
laws,  and  to  appeal  to  Cesar,  the  Prince  of  the  Romans,  not  yet 
christened:  how  much  more  may  we  call  for  aid  of  Christian  Prin- 
ces and  their  laws,  for  the  punishment  of  Heretics,  and  for  the 
church's  defence  against  them." 

I  quote  from  Annotations,  on  the  10th  chapter  of  He- 
brews 29th  verse,  on  page  373. 

"  Heresy  and  Apostacy  from  the  Catholic  faith,  punishable  by 
death  » 

I  will  make  hut  one  more  extract  and  that  is  from  the 
Annotations  on  the  Apocalypse,  or  the  book  of  Revela- 
tions, 17th  chapter,  6  verse,  page  480;  it  is  in  reference 
to  the  woman  drunken  with  the  blood  of  the  Saints  : — 

"  It  is  plain,  that  this  woman  signifieth  the  whole  corps  of  all  the 
persecutors  that  have  and  shall  shed  so  much  blood  of  the  just :  of 
the  Prophets,  Apostles,  and  other  Martyrs,  from  the  beginning  of 
the  world  to  the  end.  The  Protestants  foolishly  expound  it  of 
Rome,  for  that  there  they  put  Heretics  to  death,  and  allow  of  their 
punishment  in  other  countries  :  But  their  blood  is  not  called  the 
blood  of  the  Saints,  no  more  than  the  blood  of  thieves,  man-killers, 
and  other  malefactors  :  for  the  shedding  of  which  by  order  of  jus- 
tice, no  commonwealth  shall  answer." 

A  friend  suggests  to  me  that  I  may  also  say  the  Rhem- 
ish  New  Testament  is  not  found  in  the  Prohibitory  Index  ; 
but  I  do  not  assert  that  this  is  in  itself  conclusive,  for 
there  are,  I  must  admit,  thousands  of  books  that  are  not 
forbidden,  for  which  Catholics  are  not  responsible.  All 
we  contend  for,  is  this,  that  this  book  was  published  at 
Rheims  by  the  Jesuits  ;  that  they  subsequently  remov- 
ed to  and  republished  it  at  Douay ;  since  that  it  was  repub- 
lished in  Ireland  under  the  sanction  of  the  Catholic  Dig- 
nitaries and  of  a  large  number  of  the  Priesthood  of  that 
church.  But  when  it  was  found  that  this  work  had  creat- 
ed great  alarm  in  England,  and  these  very  dignitaries 
were  called  before  the  British  Parliament,  they  did  not 
say  it  had  not  their  sanction,  but  they  alleged  that  be- 
cause it  was  not  sanctioned  by  His  Holiness,  and  had  not 


received  the  sanction  of  the  Church,  but  was  only  circu- 
lated among  and  sanctioned  by  a  small  portion  of  it,  the 
Church  was  not  responsible  for  it,  as  it  was  not  of  Catho- 
lic authority.  We  have  not  said  in  our  memorial,  that 
it  had  the  authority  or  was  sanctioned  by  the  church. 
We  know  of  no  translation  into  any  vulgar  tongue  which 
has  received  the  sanction  of  Pope  or  Council-  The  latin 
vulgate  only  has  been  so  sanctioned.  We  only  allege 
then,  that  this  is  a  Catholic  publication,  or  that  it  is  pub- 
lished by  Catholics  ;  and  that  these  are  Catholic  Com- 
mentaries. And  we  again  affirm  all  we  have  said.  We 
have  moreover  alleged,  that  "  among  other  bad  things 
taught  in  these  Commentaries,  is  to  be  found  the  absolute 
and  unqualified  submission  in  all  matters  of  conscience 
to  the  Roman  Catholic  Church."  But  as  it  has  been 
admitted  that  the  church  has  this  authority  with  all  who 
submit  to  that  church,  it  is  unnecessary  to  prove  that  the 
Commentaries  teach  it. 

Sir,  the  next  complaint  was  of  the  following  para- 
graph : 

"  The  Roman  Catholics  complain  that  books  have  been  introduced 
into  the  public  schools,  which  are  injurious  to  them  u  a  body.  It 
is  allowed,  however,  that  the  passages  in  these  books,  to  which  such 
reference  is  made,  are  chiefly,  if  not  entirely,  historical ;  and  We 
put  it  to  the  candor  of  the  Common  Council  to  say  whether  any 
history  of  Europe,  tor  the  last  ten  centuries,  could  be  written, 
which  could  either oinit  to  mention  the  Roman  Catholic  Church,  or 
mention  it  without  recording  historical  facts  unfavorable  to  that 
Church  ?  We  assert  that  il  all  the  historical  facts  in  which  the 
Church  of  Rome  has  taken  a  prominent  part  could  be  taken  from 
writers  of  her  own  communion  only,  the  incidents  might  be  made 
more  objectionable  to  the  complainants,  than  any  book  to  which 
they  now  object." 

Sir,  the  gentleman  did  not  deny  this,  for,  as  I  recollect, 
he  said  it  was  true — be  admitted  "  that  if  all  the  histori- 
cal facts  in  which  the  Church  of  Rome  has  taken  a  prom- 
inent part,  could  be  taken  from  writers  of  her  own  com- 
munion only,  the  incidents  might  be  made  more  objec- 
tionable," because  they  always  write  the  truth.  But 
then  he  alleges  that  they  also  record  a  great  many  good 
things.  Certainly  they  have  written  "  some  good  things," 
but  it  is  not  from  these  "good  things"  exclusively  that  his- 
tory is  to  be  written — it  is  r,ot  these  "  good  things"thatare 
to  constitute  history  for  the  Public  Schools.  What  is  his- 
tory I  History  is  "  Philosophy  teaching1  by  example;"  and 
could  we  be  taught  by  example  if  we  only  saw  the  bright 
side  of  the  picture  and  not  the  dark  side  too  t  Could  any 
such  history  be  useful  ?  If  we  see  but  a  partial  record, 
how  can  we  avoid  error?  History  is  a  beacon  and  a 
chart ;  but  would  it  be  so — would  it  be  a  proper  directo- 
ry if  it  contained  only  that  which  could  be  said  in  favor 
of  any  religious  sect  or  denomination  1  Such  a  record 
would  be  worthless  as  a  history.  The  blessed  Bible  does 
not  do  so.  Does  any  history  contain  a  more  particular 
record  than  this  Book  does  of  the  lapses  and  falls  of  the 
most  eminent  people  of  God  1  Does  not  the  faithful 
page  of  the  sacred  historian,  record  the  fall  of  David  t  Yes, 
sir,  it  records  that  that  man — that  holy  Psalmist  himself 
fell,  being  overcome  by  temptation,  into  the  crimes  of 
murder  and  adultery.  Sir,  it  is  a  faithful  history  and  I 
would  desire  that  all  our  histories  should  tecord  all  the 
good  of  Roman  Catholics,  but  they  must  record  the  evil 
also,  or  they  are  not  histories  at  all.  But  we  have  said 
"  History,  then,  must  be  falsified  for  their  accommoda- 
tion," and  would  it  not  be  so  if  only  that  which  was  good  of 
them  were  recorded  i  "  And  yet  they  complain  that  the 
system  of  education  adopted  in  the  Public  Schools,  does 
not  teach  the  sinfulness  of  lying  !"    It  may  be  painful  to 


33 


them,  but  are  we  to  have  no  feeling?    But  the  Right 
Rev.  gentleman  told  us  that  the  Methodist  Episcopal 
Church  is';a  young  church,  and  that  this  was  the  reason  why 
there  were  not  many  very  bad  things  said  of  us.    He  said 
our  church  was  only  a  hundred  years  old  ;  yet  a  great 
many  bad  things  may  be  done  in  a  hundred  years.  But 
we  have  not  escaped  unscathed,  though  perhaps  the  gen- 
tleman may  not  know  it.  Why  sir,  Mr.  O'Connell  has  pub- 
lished that  our  Founder,  Mr.  Wesley,  aided  and  abetted 
Lord  George  Gordon's  mob!    Yes,  that  if  Wesley  did 
not  originate,  he  aided  and  abetted  it ;  so  that  we  havre 
not  escaped  unscathed.    But  the  Rev.  gentleman  went 
further.    He  said  we  had  clone  less  good  than  any  other 
denomination  in  Christendom.    Why,  we  are  not  asking 
this  Council  any  reward  for  what  we  have  done;  we 
make  no  pretentions;  whether  we  have  done  good  we  leave 
others  to  decide.    All  we  claim  is,  that  we  have  stood 
in  our  lot.    We  believe  the  different  sects  and  denomina- 
tions in  Christendom  are  permitted  of  God  for  wise  pur- 
poses.   We  would  not  swallow  them  up  if  we  could  — 
We  would  not  cross  the  street  to  make  all  other  Pro- 
testants members  of  our  church.    We  have  our  work  ; 
we  cannot  do  their  work  ;  they  cannot  do  ours.   We  make 
no  claim  ;  but  if  we  have  not  done  a  great  deal  of  good, 
how  can  the  gentleman  with  propriety  profess  so  much 
respect  for  us  ?    If  Ave  had  done  good  we  should  not  have 
escaped,  any  more  than  our  brethren,  so  significantly  and 
appropriately  termed  Friends  :  they  have  done  good,  yet 
they  have  not  escaped  any  more  than  ourselves.    It  is  to 
them  that  the  world  owes  the  increasing  disapproval  of 
war,  and  though  they  have  not  been  able  to  accomplish 
what  they  desire,  and  though  they  have  been  unresisting- 
ly oppressed,  they  have  borne  a  patient  testimony  to  their 
doctrine,  and  with  the  revolutions  of  this  world,  the  day 
will  come  when  war  will  be  no  more.    And  have  they 
not  borne  a  holy  testimony  against  Slavery  ;  not  a  tur- 
bulent and  an  abusive  testimony,  but  such  as  comports 
with  the  doctrines  they  teach,  and  yet  they  have  not  escap- 
ed ;  though  they  have  confessedly  done  a  great  deal  of 
good.    It  has    been    said    that    the   Methodist  Epis- 
copal Church  in  England  never  favored  the  rights  of  con- 
science, nor  aided  in  the  enlargement  of  liberty.  Why 
there  is  no  Methodist  Episcopal  Church  in  England  at 
all.    The  Methodist  Society  in  England,  claims  only  to 
be  a  Society  within  the  pale  of  the  Church  of  England, 
as  the  Jesuits  are  a  society  within  the  pale  of  the  Catholic 
Church.    If  it  be  alleged  that  the  Methodist  Society  are 
not  acknowledged  by  the  Church  of  England,  it  will 
not  be  forgotten  that  the  order  of  Jesuits  have  been  sup- 
pressed by  the  Pope.    It  seems,  however,  (hat  the  latter 
have  been  restored,  and  so  our  friends  in  England  seem 
to  be  getting  high  in  favor  with  the  English  establish- 
ment; yet  we  owe  them  no  allegiance;  we  send  them  no 
books  to  be  sanctioned  before  we  venture  to  use  then)  in 
our  schools;  in  short  we  do  not  admit  their  right  to  dic- 
tate to  us  in  any  matter  whatever.    It  is  in  this  country 
only,  that  there  exists  any  Methodist  Episcopal  Church. 
But  we  are  told  that  the  Methodists  in  England  have 
never  taken  any  part,  or  given  any  aid,  in  the  struggle 
for  religious  liberty.    It  is  true,  sir,  that  the  Methodists 
in  England,  like  the  Methodists  here  eschew  all  parti- 
cipation in  political  strife,  as  a  society  or  church.  They 
do  not  think  it  any  part  of  their  vocation  to  call  meet- 
ings in  their  churches,  and  address  them  on  the  political 
questions  of  the  day,  u3  some  other  churches  do.  Per- 
haps they  are  too  young  a  church  for  this,  and  we  hope 


it  will  be  a  long  time  before  they  get  old  enough  to  do  so. 
But  individually  they  act  in  these  matters  as  others  do; 
and  it  is  to  honor  of  the  Methodist  denomination  in 
England,  that  their  members  generally  gave  their  whole 
weight  and  influence  to  Mr.  Wilberforce  in  all  his  be- 
nevolent efforts  in  favor  of  civil  and  religious  liberty. 
During  his  long  struggle  against  the  slave  trade,  such 
was  their  attachment  to  him  and  his  cause,  that  in  some 
paits  of  England  collections  were  made  at  the  doors  of 
their  places  of  worship  to  aid  in  defraying  the  expenses 
of  his  election. 

But  we  have  said  "  This  is  not  all.    They  have  been 
most  complaisantly  offered  the  censorship  of  the  books 
to  be  used  in  the  public  schools.    The  committee  to 
whom  has  been  confided  the  management  of  these  schools 
in  this  city,  offered  to  allow  the  Roman  Catholic  Bishop 
to  expurgate  from  these  books  any  thing  offensive  to  him. 
But  the  offer  was  not  accepted;  perhaps  for  the  same 
reason  that  he  declined  to  decide  on  the  admissibility  of 
a  book  of  extracts  from  the  Bible,  which  had  been  sanc- 
tioned by  certain  Roman  Bishops  in  Ireland   An  appeal, 
it  seems,  had  gone  to  the  Pope  on  the  subject,  and'  no- 
thing could  be  said  or  done  in  the  matter  until  his  Holi- 
ness had  decided.    The  Common  Council  of  New  York 
will  therefore  find,  that  when  fhey  shall  have  conceded 
to  the  Roman  Catholics  of  this  city  the  selection  of 
books  for  the  use  of  the  public  school*,  that  these  books 
must  undergo  the  censorship  of  a  foreign  Potentate. — * 
We  hope  the  time  is  far  distant  when  the  citizens  of  this 
country  will  allow  any  foreign  power  to  dictate  to  them 
in  matters  relating  to  either  general  or  municipal  law." 
To  this  it  is  objected  simply  that  the  Roman  Catholics 
of  this  country  acknowledge'the  supremacy  of  the  Pope 
only  in  spiritual  things,  that  they  do  not  acknowledge  in 
him  either  political,  or  civil,  or  any  other  than  spiritual 
authority.    Well,  sir,  we  have  not  said  they  did,  in  our 
memorial.    What  then  is  the  complaint  1    We  did  not 
undertake  to  determine  whether  the  submitting  to  his 
Holiness  the  question  whether  a  book  shall  be  used  in 
our  schools  is  a  spiritual  or  temporal  matter.  But  we  really 
wish  to  know  where  temporal  jurisdiction  ends  and  spir- 
itual jurisdiction  begins.     We  should  like  to  have  some 
definite  boundary — some  line  of  demarcation  drawn  be- 
tween temporal  and  spiritual  authority.  We  did  consider 
the    public    schools    a    secular    matter    altogether — 
we  did  think  it  a  temporal  matter  to  decide  what  books 
should  be  used  in  our  public  schools,  for  professedly 
they  do  not  intend  to  interfere  with  the  peculiarities  of 
any  sect.   But  if  this  is  really  a  spiritual  matter  where  will 
it  end  ?    What  is  it.  it  cannot  reach  ?    What  is  it,  it  will 
not  reach  ?    If  it  is  a  spiritual  matter,  then  all  that  is 
necessary  to  carry  out  spiritual  dominion  must  he  grant- 
ed, and  when  was  it  that  to  enforce  spiritual  dictation 
temporal  power  was  not  resorted  to  if  practicable  !  The 
timt;  was  when  to  enforce  this  spiritual  authority  a  whole 
country  was  laid  under  interdict     Who  docs  not  know 
that  the  time  was  when  the  churches  in  England  were  all 
hung  in  black,  when  the  dead  were  unburied,  when  the 
children  were  not  baptized,  and  when  nothing  was  done 
by  the  clergy  which  the  community  esteemed  essential 
to  their  eternal  interests,  and  subjects  absolved  from 
their  allegiance,  because  the  King  refused  to  submit  to 
the  Pope  of  Rome.    This  power  may  not  exist  here; 
the  pretension  may  have  been  abandoned  :  hut  if  it 
has  been,  1  should  like  to  know  it.    I  should  li!;e  to 
know  where  the  boundary  is  between  temporal  and 


34 


spiritual  power.  I  should  like,  for  the  first  time,  to 
he  taught  whether  they  consider  the  common  interests 
of  education  a  secular  or  a  spiritual  matter,  and  if  a  sec- 
ular, whether  it  is  to  be  interfered  with  by  this  spiritual 
power?  As  yet  it  cannot  be  determined  what  books 
will  be  tolerated  in  the  public  schools  by  the  Roman 
Catholic  Bishop,  while  an  appeal  has  gone  to  the  Roman 
Pontiff, — nothing  can  be  done  here  until  his  answer  is 
received  !  The  gentleman  did  not  deny  this  last  night, 
when  it  was  so  alleged  on  the  part  of  the  Public  School 
Society,  and  therefore  he  must  pardon  me  if  I  believe  it. 

Sir,  we  did,  in  our  memorial,  regret  that  our  Roman 
Catholic  fellow  citizens,  in  their  address,  should  have 
referred  to  the  martyrs  of  their  Church  who  suffered  for 
opinion's  sake,  and  we  did  say  it  was  an  unfortunate  al- 
lusion. It  was  unfortunate  because  it  was  addressed  to 
all  classes  of  the  community,  and  because  in  this  commu- 
nity there  are  strangers  from  abroad,  of  all  countries, 
among  whom  there  are  descendants  of  protestants  who 
suffered  for  their  religion.  We  said  it  was  an  unfortu- 
nate allusion,  and  wc  said  so  because  it  would  revive  in 
the  minds  of  many  the  memories  of  their  ancestors,  and 
they  would  thereby  be  reminded  of  the  revocation  of  the 
Edict  ofNantz,  the  massacre  of  St.  Bartholomew's  day, 
the  fires  of  Smithfield,  or  the  crusade  agninst  the  Wal- 
denscs.  Now  we  did  not  mean  to  say  that  the  Right 
Rev.  gentleman  has  power  to  do  these  things  now,  we 
did  not  intend  to  insinuate  that  our  Koman  Catholic  fel- 
low citizens  would  persecute  now  ;  but  we  said  it  was 
unfortunate,  and  was  it  not  unfortunate  to  do  anything 
to  revive  the  recollection  of  scenes  so  painful  ?  But  w  e 
said  we  were  desirous  to  cover  all  these  scenes  with  the 
mantle  of  charity,  and  the  gentleman  rebukes  us.  He 
tells  us  to  attempt  to  do  no  such  thing,  for  our  mantle  is 
too  narrow.  Well,  I  suppose  he  does  not  mean  to  prac- 
tice this  virtue  himself,  but  to  revive  feelings  in  Protes- 
tants which  we  should  wish  not  to  recollect  if  it  could  be 
prevented.  But  he  adverts  to  their  sufferings  for  con- 
science sake,  and  he  went  into  details  of  the  persecu- 
tions of  Catholics  in  England.  Now,  sir,  we  are  not 
here  to  justify  persecution,  nor  to  make  excuse  for  it — 
we  hate  it,  and  we  love  to  hate  it — but  we  are  here  to 
say,  and  we  must  be  allowed  to  say,  that  whatever  may 
be  alleged  against  Protestants  about  persecution,  that  we 
are  at  liberty  to  be  better  than  our  fathers  ;  we  are  at 
liberty  to  renounce  both  the  practice  and  the  tenets  of 
our  fathers  if  they  are  found  to  be  wrong.  We  say  that 
when  Protestants  persecuted  Catholics  they  were  not 
half  reformed — that  they  had  brought  much  that  was  un- 
christian out  of  the  Church  from  which  they  had  come. 
But  we  have  learned  better  now  ;  we  have  abandoned 
those  tenets  and  practices.  Let  the  Right  Rev-  gentle- 
man say  as  much  for  himself ;  let  him  say  that  with  them 
it  is  not  semper  tadem,  always  the  same.  Let  him  say 
that  the  Roman  Church  has  erred  in  matters  of  faith  or 
that  she  can  err,  and  then  the  difficulty  between  Pro- 
testants and  Catholics  will  cease  from  that  moment.  If 
the  Catholics  of  the  United  States  are  at  liberty  to  think 
for  themselves  on  these  subjects,  and  dissent  from  what- 
ever they  believe  is  not  according  to  the  word  of  God — 
either  their  translation  or  the  original — if  they  are  at 
liberty  to  do  this,  the  difficulty  is  at  an  end.  But  while 
they  are  bound  by  the  decrees  of  an  infallible  Church — 
while  they  are  not  to  determine  anything  for  themselves 
as  a  matter  of  faith — while  they  are  not  to  believe  that 
their  church  can  at  any  time  be  wrong  in  opinion — that 
she  can  never  err;  we  have  more  cause  to  fear  that  Cath- 


olics will,  if  they  get  the  power,  persecute  the  Protes- 
tants, than  they  can  have  of  persecution  from  Protes- 
tants. If  they  can  say  they  do  not  believe  as  their 
fathers  did,  we  may  hope  they  will  not  do  as  their  fathers 
have  done;  but  while  their  motto  continues  to  be  "  sem- 
per cadem,"  while  they  continue  to  declare  that  their 
church  is  always  and  every  where  the  same,  we  think, 
sir,  we  may  not  dismiss  our  fears.  Let  them  renounce 
their  infallibility  and  we  will  be  cured  of  our  apprehen- 
sions.   But  again. 

"  Your  memorialists  had  hoped  that  the  intolerance  and 
exclusiveness  which  had  characterized  the  Roman  Cath- 
olic Church  in  Europe,  had  been  greatly  softened  under 
the  benign  influences  of  our  civil  institutions.  The  per- 
tinacity with  which  their  sectarian  interests  are  now 
urged,  has  dissipated  the  illusion.  We  were  content 
with  their  having  excluded  us,  "  ex  cathedra,"  from  all 
claim  to  heaven,  for  we  were  sure  they  did  not  possess 
tho  keys,  notwithstanding  their  confident  pretension,  nor 
did  wc  complain  that  they  would  not  allow  us  any  partic  i- 
pation in  the  benefits  of  purgatory,  for  it  is  a  place  they 
have  made  for  themselves,  and  of  which  they  may  claim 
the  exclusive  propriety;  but  we  do  protest  against  any 
appropriation  of  the  public  school  fund  for  their  exclu- 
sho  benefit,  or  for  any  other  purposes  whatever." 

Now  the  Right  Rev.  gentleman  ought  to  have  remark- 
ed here  an  error  of  the  printer;  the  omission  of  the 
word  "  sectarian  ;"  and  instead  of  "  any  other  purpose 
whatever  "  it  should  have  read  "  any  other  sectarian 
purpose  whatever." 

Sir,  the  gentleman  admits  we  are  right;  they  do  ex- 
ludc  su  from  heaven  ;  but  then  he  alleges  that  we  are  as 
bad  as  we  said  they  were,  for  we  exclude  Catholics. 
Now,  if  there  are  any  that  do  not  allow  that  good  pious 
Roman  Catholics  are  going  to  heaven,  I  do  not  know  it* 
If  there  are  any  such  in  our  denomination,  it  is  unknown 
to  me  ;  I  hold  no  such  opinions,  and  I  hope  the  gentle- 
man himself  will  take  it  back  again,  when  I  assure  him 
that  the  founder  of  Methodism,  John  Wesley,  published 
the  life  of  Baron  De  Rentz,  and  that  he  abridged  and 
published  u  Kempis'  Christian  Pattern,"  both  of  which 
have  been  widely  circulated  amongst  our  people.  We  do 
not  deny  that  Roman  Catholics  may  go  to  heaven  ;  nor 
did  we  complain  that  we  were  denied  any  participation 
in  the  benefits  of  their  purgatory  ;  but  the  gentleman  tells 
us  to  go  farther  and  fare  worse.  Sir,  we  will  take  our 
chance  for  that — we  will  take  our  chance  of  faring  worse 
and  of  getting  to  heaven  too.  But  if  the  gentleman  de- 
nies us  the  benefit  of  his  purgatory  in  the  next  world,  we 
hope  he  will  allow  us  the  benefits  of  this  world.  If  he 
will  allow  our  children  the  benefit  of  the  Public  Schools 
— of  a  place  where  they  can  learn  to  read  God's  holy 
word  ;  if  he  will  not  persist  in  a  measure  w  hich  will 
destroy  these  schools —  we  will  take  our  chance  of  going 
farther  and  faring  worse.  If  he  will  allow  our  children 
a  place  where  they  can  learn  to  read  that  Book  which  as 
the  great  Mr.  Locke  says,  has  God  fcr  its  author,  salva- 
tion for  its  end,  and  truth  without  any  mixture  of  error, 
for  its  matter  ;  we  will  not  complain  of  any  other  exclu- 
sion he  may  insist  upon  in  the  matter.  But  it  is  alleged 
that  we  are  here  to  oppose  Roman  Catholics.  Sir,  we 
would  oppose  the  Methodists  if  the  same  application  was 
made  by  them.  I  would  have  stood  here  myself  to  op- 
pose them,  for  I  do  not  fear  nor  dedge  any  responsibili- 
ty. We  believe  that  all  mankind  are  individually  under- 
goes a  moral  and  intellectual  probation  before  God; 
and  that  we  cannot,  without  incurring  the  divine  dis- 


35 


pleasure,  substitute  this  probationary  relation,  by  one 
before  any  man,  or  any  number  of  men,  whether  Pope  or 
Council,  or  the  Methodist  General  Conference.  None 
of  these  can  release  us  from  our  obligations  as  pro- 
bationers before  God.  "  To  our  own  master  we  stand 
or  fall."  If  the  Methodist  Episcopal  Church  had  issued 
her  mandate  to  me  not  to  appear  before  this  body,  and 
not  to  oppose  this  application,  I  would  have  set  her  au- 
thority at  nought.  We  believe  that  these  Public  Schools 
are  necessary  to  our  form  of  government  ;  that  it  is  not 
safe  to  commit  the  preservation  and  perpetuation  of  the 
public  liberty  and  of  our  civil  institutions  to  an  ignorant, 
untaught  multitude,  to  those  who  will  be  incapable  of  ap- 
preciating their  value,  or  who  may  be  made  the  dupes  of 
better  educated  but  more  wicked  men.  We  say  it  is  ne- 
cessary to  the  perpetuation  of  public  liberty  that  the  corn- 
unity  be  educated — that  all  who  exercise  the  elective 
franchise,  should  be  taught  to  value  our  civil  institutions. 
But  we  say  that  no  sectarian  body  can  do  this  ;  it  must 
be  done  by  all  together.  If  you  were  to  give  all  this 
money  to  the  sects,  it  could  not  be  done — it  can  only  be 
done  by  a  common  system,  for  if  all  the  sects  had  this 
money  divided  amongst  them,  there  is  one  half  of  the 
community  who  would  not  suffer  their  children  to  be 
taught  by  them.  What  then  is  to  become  of  these  chil- 
dren I  Our  public  liberties  demand  a  public  universal 
system  of  education,  and  this  can  only  be  effected  by 
agents  appointed  by  the  State,  and  answerable  to  the 
State;  it  can  never  be  done  if  the  money  be  given  to  any 
denomination,  or  divided  among  all  the  sects.  Sir,  we 
allege  this  is  the  broad  principle  on  which  the  Common 
Schools  are  established  ;  take  this  away,  and  you  have 
no  right  to  lay  a  tax  at  all;  you  could  not  lay  a  tax  with 
any  justice  for  this  purpose.  If  the  money  is  to  be  dis- 
tributed among  the  different  sects  and  denominations  of 
christians,  and  they  are  to  use  it  as  they  think  best, even 
for  their  own  proselyting  purposes — I  speak  of  no  parti- 
cular denomination — all  have  their  preferences  and  pecu- 
liar tenets,  and  all  desire  to  make  converts  to  their  belief 
— I  say  give  the  money  to  this  end,  and  what  follows  ? 
Why,  that  you  ought  to  tax  them  severally  according  to 
what  they  receive.  What  right  have  you  to  tax  Roman 
Catholics  for  the  support  of  Methodist  Schools  1  or  what 
right  have  you  to  tax  Methodists  for  the  support  of  Pres- 
byterian Schools  ]  In  short,  what  right  have  you  to  tax 
any  sect  for  the  support  of  the  Schools  of  rival  sects'? 
You  have  first  to  ascertain  what  each  requires  to  support 
the  schools  under  their  care,  and  then  to  tax  that  denomi- 
nation to  the  necessary  amount.  You  have  no  right  to 
tax  me  as  a  Methodist,  for  the  Roman  Catholic  Schools 
but  only  on  the  ground  that  education  is  necessary  for 
the  preservation  of  our  public  liberties  and  for  the  public 
safety.  Fall  back  upon  the  plan  you  formerly  pursued  and 
you  will  again  hear  of  complaints  among  the  sects,  that  they 
do  not  receive  from  the  public  fund  according  to  what  they 
pay  in.  Now  the  Methodists,  perhaps,  pay  much  less 
than  some  other  denominations  who  are  less  numerous  than 
themselves.  We  make  it  a  part  of  our  religion  to  pay  our 
taxes  if  we  are  able  ;  but  we  have  very  little  to  be  taxed 
at  all ;  and  if  we  have  but  little  to  be  taxed,  we  pay  but 
little  ;  and  yet  we  could  supply  more  children  than  some 
denominations  who  pay  ten  times  more.  Would  they 
then  have  no  right  to  complain  if  these  Schools  were 
established  on  sectarian  principles  instead  of  public  prin- 
ciples 1  Would  not  their  complaint  be  just  and  proper  \ 
It  is  clear  that  you  could  not  refute  these  complaints. 
And  if  you  concede  the  prayer  of  these  petitioners,  if 


you  grant  their  request  in  order  that  you  may  remove 

their  cause  of  complaint,  you  destroy  the  Public  School 
system  and  you  may  take  your  leave  of  it  from  that  very 
moment;  the  whole  fabric  will  crumble  into  its  original 
elements — it  cannot  stand. 

But  why  should  this  system  of  public  education  be 
abandoned  ?  Is  it  to  appease  the  scrupulous  consciences 
of  the  Catholics  1  The  existence  of  public  schools,  or  of 
the  public  school  system,  cannot  affect  their  consciences, 
for  they  are  not  compelled  to  send  their  children  to  the 
public  schools.  Have  they  then  any  scruples  of  con- 
science about  paying  taxes  for  the  support  of  this  institu- 
tion. The  Right  Reverend  gentleman  tells  you  himself 
they  have  not,  for  he  tells  you  they  have  not  complained 
and  do  not  intend  to  complain  of  the  appropriation  by  the 
Legislature  of  money  raised  by  taxation  to  Protestant 
colleges.  If,  then,  sir,  you  yield  the  claims  of  the  Cath- 
olics, it  will  not  be  to  their  conscientious  objections  that 
you  yield,  but  to  the  alleged  injustice  of  compelling  them 
to  contribute  to  a  public  benefit,  from  which  they,  as  a 
sect,  derive  no  advantage.  You  must,  then,  sir,  go  far- 
ther ;  you  must  release  all  from  the  payment  of  taxes 
who  cannot  conscientiously  avail  themselves  of  the  ad- 
vantages offered  by  the  public  schools,  and  this  will  in- 
clude most  of  the  large  property  holders  in  the  city — for 
these  being  able  to  afford  it,  are  bound  by  parental  duty 
to  afford  their  children  a  better  education  than  can  be 
given  in  the  public  schools.  Yet  these  are  not  only  wil- 
ling to  pay  taxes  for  the  support  of  public  schools,  but 
have  petitioned  the  Legislature  to  tax  them  for  this  pur- 
pose, because  they  are  aware  that  the  education  of  the 
poor  classes  is  necessary  to  the  common  welfare. 

But  sir,  I  adverted  to  a  foreign  Potentate ;  and  I  did 
say  I  desired  to  know  where  his  spiritual  authority  ceased. 
And  I  am  the  more  desirous  of  knowing  this  because  it 
is  alleged,  and  the  Right  Rev.  gentleman  ought  to  know, 
if  it  be  true,  that  by  the  oath  taken  by  the  dignitaries 
of  that  church,  they  are  bound  to  support  a  little  more 
than  the  Pope's  spiritual  authority.  I  will  make  no  as- 
sertion, but  I  throw  it  out  that  the  Right  Rev.  gentleman 
may  say  whether  his  oath  of  ordination  does  not  bind 
him  to  a  little  more.  Sir,  I  did  say,  and  I  emphatically 
repeat,  that  it  is  very  desirable  his  fellow  citizens  should 
know  where  that  civil  and  spiritual  authority  terminate. 
I  beg  pardon  for  intruding  so  long  upon  your  attention  ; 
I  have  gone  through  our  memorial,  and  that  is  all  we  ask. 
At  present  I  have  nothing  more  to  say. 

The  Gentlemen  who  appeared  as  the  representatives  of 
the  petitioners  and  the  remonstrants,  having  now  been 
heard,  The  President  inquired — What  is  the  pleasure  of 
the  Board  1 

An  Alderman  moved  that  if  there  were  other  gentlemen 
present  who  desired  to  be  heard,  that  they  be  heard  ou 
sending  their  names  to  the  President ;  which  was  agreed  to. 

Dr.  Sweeney  said  that  he  appeared,  with  several  other 
gentlemen  as  a  committee  from  the  Catholics,  but  they 
withdrew  their  claim  to  be  heard,  as  the  Right  Rev.  Bishop 
Hughes  was  entitled  to  a  reply. 

Dr.  David  M.  Reese,  M.  D.,  (who  is  a  Preacher  in  the 
Methodist  Episcopal  Church)  rose  and  said: 

Mr.  President,  I  avail  myself  of  the  permission  granted 
by  the  board  to  add  a  few  observations  on  another  branch 
of  the  subject  which  is  interesting  to  us  all,  to  which  I 
desire  for  a  moment  only  to  direct  your  attention.  It  ap- 
pears to  me,  sir,  that  neither  Romanism,  nor  Protestantism 
is  on  trial  here,  and  the  question  submitted  to  this  honoura- 


3G 


Clc  board  is  not  whether  the  Roman  Catholic  Church  shall 

have  the  exclusive  control  of  nny  portion  of  the  public  trea- 
sure, collected  by  public  luxation  fur  the  purpose  of  public 
education — it  isnotthi  question  whethet  the  Roman  Catholic 
Church  shall  have  it;  but  the  great  question  in  which  we 
are  interested  as  a  community  is,  whether  any  denomina- 
tion,— whether  any  portion  ol  this  great  community  shall 
have  the  exclusive  control,  though  it  be  but  of  a  single  dol- 
lar, of  the  money  raised  by  public  taxation  for  the  public 
benefit.  I  would  hope  therefore,  if  I  succeed  in  gaining 
your  attention  to  the  point — to  the  single  point  1  submit  to 
you,  to  call  you  for  a  moment  ft  cm  every  consideration  of  a 
sectarian  aspect.  Indeed,  I  humbly  concieve  that  religious 
creeds — that  sectarian  creeds  of  any  kind  whatever  are  not 
at  issue  in  the  present  controversy.  II  this  application  hud 
come  from  Protestants  as  a  body — from  any  political  or 
religious  sect,  however  numerous,  or  powerful,  or  popular 
they  might  be,  the  same  objection  would  lie  against  the 
application,  from  whatever  source  it  might  come.  I 
humbly  submit  therefore,  whether  the  Right  Rev.  Gentle- 
man  to  whom  we  had  the  pleasure  to  listen  last  night, 
would  not  have  served  the  public  more  effectually  by  in- 
structing his  people  that  the  opposition  to  this  claim  is  not 
an  opposition  to  the  Roman  Catholics,  but  to  the  principle 
of  appropriating  money  raised  by  taxation  for  public  pur- 
poses, to  any  party  whatever,  for  their  exclusive  control. 
I  say  the  Rev.  Gentleman  would  have  been  serving  the 
public,  and  would  have  been  doing  nothing  unworthy  of 
his  highly  honourable,  and  sacred  office,  if  he  had  applied 
himself  to  enlightening  his  people  on  this  point — that 
the  present  opposition  is  not  an  opposition  to  their  creed 
or  to  their  church,  but  that  the  same  opposition  would  be 
against  any  other  denomination  equally  as  numerous,  and 
equally  as  respectable.  Certainly,  Sir,  this  would  have 
been  more  worthy  of  his  sacred  office  than  haranguing  his 
people  in  their  public  assemblies  for  the  purpose  of  exciting 
prejudices  against  the  Public  Schools.  Before  these  preju- 
dices were  created,  when  these  people  had  not  yet  been  taught 
to  look  upon  them  as  odious,  the  Roman  Catholics  sent  their 
children  to  these  schools,  and  availed  themselves  thankfully 
of  their  benefits.  But  now  many  of  them  have  abstracted 
their  children,  merely  because  harangues  of  that  kind  have 
been  made  which  are  calculated  to  create  disaffection 
amongst  them.  Sir,  the  opposition  made  to  this  memorial 
is  neither  sectarian  nor  religious;  and  this  being  premised, 
it  is  impossible  that  it  can  involve  a  question  of  conscience 
at  all.  What  is  the  question  ?  It  is  complained  that  men 
having  taxed  themselves,  and  having  paid  that  tax,  for  a 
given  purpose — the  public  benefit — have  afterwards  vol- 
untarily chosen  in  the  exercise  of  their  freedom,  in  this 
free  country,  to  forego  the  benefits  provided  for  the  public 
indiscriminately.  All  are  taxed  for  public  education  which 
is  given  by  the  Public  Schools ;  but  a  portion  of  the  citizens 
choose  to  relinquish  the  advantages  of  these  schools  ;  the 
question  then  resolves  itself  into  this,  is  it  sound  public 
policy  to  tax  the  citizens  generally  for  a  public  purpose 
when  any  portion,  on  whom  the  tax  is  imposed,  choose  not 
to  avail  themselves  of  its  advantages?  You  see  in  this 
aspect  that  it  strikes  at  the  whole  Public  School  System  ; 
for  if  the  Roman  Catholics  are  to  be  excused  because  they 
chose  to  forego  the  advantages  provided,  every  other  sect, 
whether  for  the  sake  of  party  politics  or  religion,  might 
take  the  same  attitude  and  plead  the  same  conscience,  and 
the  result  would  be  that  there  would  be  no  provision  made 
for  public  education,  and  the  rising  generation  in  multitudes 
would  grow  up  like  "the  wild  asses'  colt." 

Now  in  this  aspect  I  humbly  submit  whether  our  fellow 


citizens  who  are  found  peacefully  enjoying  their  rights  and 

liberties  in  this  country,  do  not  receive  an  equivalent  for  the 

taxes  which  the  y  jay,  in  the  pioper  exercise  of  the  right  of 
suffrage  which  is  here  secured?  Whether  they  ought  not 
thus  to  contribute  to  the  political  advantages  which  this 
happy  country  furnishes,  and  whether  they  do  not  thus 
secure  an  ample  equivalent  for  the  taxes  which  they  pay, 
even  in  cases  where  they  voluntarily  decline  to  avail  them- 
selves of  the  Public  Schools.  But,  sir,  I  know  a  conscience 
may  be  created  in  this  community  by  a  Bishop  or  other 
dignitary.  Let  them  but  turn  their  churches  into  Bear 
Gardens  and  agitate  their  congregations  by  excitingspeecbes 
as  has  been  done  on  this  subje  ct,  and  others  will  be  taught 
to  plead  their  newly  excited  consciences  beside  Roman 
Catholics.  And  shall  this  great  community  be  de- 
prived of  this  system  because  such  a  conscience  is  cre- 
ated? But  if  there  can  be  no  conscience  in  the  mat- 
ter in  truth,  the  point  is  narrowed  down  to  the  ques- 
tion— Is  it  a  haidship  to  pay  a  tax  for  a  public  benefit 
when  we  thus  forego  the  advantages?  Or  ought  every 
man  who  does  not  avail  himself  of  the  advantages  which 
the  system  furnishes,  to  be  exempted  from  taxation?  We 
know  a  disposition  tu  avoid  taxation  exists  in  thousands, 
and  if  conscience  is  to  be  an  excuse,  conscience  will  easily 
be  started  to  avoid  the  payment,  and  the  result  will  be  that 
no  public  education  could,  be  sustained  here  or  elsewhere. 

As  well  might  the  petitioners  ask  for  a  separate  Alms 
House  or  a  separate  Hospital  for  their  exclusive  accommo- 
dation, and  allege  the  haidship  of  paying  a  tax  for  the  sup- 
port of  these  public  charities,  while  their  consciences  would 
not  allow  them  to  take  shelter  there,  in  time  of  adversity; 
because  forsooth,  a  Protestant  Bible  is  sometimes  found 
there,  and  a  Protestant  chaplain  sometimes  reads  a  chapter 
there,  for  the  consolation  of  the  sick  and  dying. 

Sir,  it  is  the  enlightened  public  policy  of  our  city,  slate, 
and  nation,  to  provide  and  perpetuate  the  facilities  for  edu- 
cating the  entire  population  in  the  rudiments  of  secular 
learning,  and  to  support  these  and  other  public  institutions 
by  public  taxation.  The  provision  is  free  for  all,  and  all 
contribute  to  its  maintainance.  But  if  individuals'among 
us  choose  to  educate  their  own  children,  and  refuse  to  avail 
themselves  of  the  Public  Schools,  the  act  is  their  own,  hut 
in  no  wise  furnishes  them  a  pretext  to  complain.  Espe- 
cially, when  such  individuals  establish  sectaiian  schools,  in 
which  with  the  secular  knowledge  imparted,  their  own  re- 
ligious tenets  are  to  be  taught;  is  it  not  passing  strange, 
that  they  should  wish  to  impose  upon  all  other  religions, 
the  tax  of  sustaining  those  schools,  in  which  their  own  re- 
ligion is  exclusively  to  be  inculcated?  1  care  not  whether 
such  individuals  be  Roman  Catholics  or  Protestants,  they 
cannot  by  possibility  possess  any  right  of  conscience,  which 
will  give  them  a  claim  to  impose  upon  any  other  man's 
conscience,  the  burden  of  supporting  their  sectarian  or  ex- 
clusive schools.  Nor  can  the  money  raised  by  public  tax- 
ation to  support  Public  schools,  be  expended  in  any  other 
schools  than  those  of  strictly  public  character,  which  de- 
nominational schools  cannot  be  in  the  nature  of  things. 

The  system  of  the  New  York  Public  School  society, 
secures  confessedly  every  desirable  facil  ty  for  secular 
learning,  to  an  extent  commensurate  with  the  population. 
No  religious  test  is  required  as  a  qualification  for  the  office 
of  teacher  in  these  schools,  and  both  trustees  and  teachers 
are  promiscuously  taken  from  all  denominations,  a  number 
of  Roman  Catholics  being  engaged  both  as  trustees  and 
teachers.  Great  care  however  is  taken  to  have  none  em- 
ployed in  these  schools  as  teachers,  but  persons  of  good  mo- 
ral character,  and  while  all  the  peculiarities  of  doctrinal 


3? 


tenets  which  distinguish  and  separate  Christian  churches 
of  every  name  are  excluded,  the  purcstmorals  in  which  all 
agree,  are  taught  among  the  lessons  of  each  day,  a  chapter 
in  the  Bible  being  read  at  the  opening  of  the  school.  The 
petitioners  themselves  do  not  allege  any  defect  in  the  secu- 
lar knowledge  here  taught,  nor  do  they  complain  that  any 
religious  doctrines  are  inculcated  in  these  schools.  But 
they  insist  that  their  consciences  will  not  allow  them  to 
sustain  such  schools,  because  no  religion  is  taught  in  them ; 
and  surely  they  would  consent  to  none  being  taught,  except 
their  own  religion,  and  hence  it  is  for  this  purpose  alone, 
they  have  their  own  schools.  It  is  idle  then  for  the  Rt. 
Rev.  Bishop,  to  repeat  his  disclaimer  of  any  intention  to 
teach  his  own  religion  in  his  own  schools,  for  in  no  other 
way  can  he  make  out  his  plea  of  conscience,  nor  can  he  in 
any  other  way  make  out  a  single  plea  against  the  present 
excellent  system  of  Public  School  instruciion. 

I  do  not  design  to  prolong  the  discussion,  but  I  feel  im- 
pelled to  say  what  I  have  said,  for  I  have  observed  the  ex- 
citement which  exists,  arising  out  of  the  false  issue  which 
the  Right  Rev.  gentleman  has  created,  and  that  hence  all 
the  publications  on  that  side  of  the  question  in  putting  forth 
the  claim  of  the  Catholics,  have  treated  it  as  though  the  op- 
position to  it  was  an  opposition  to  Roman  Catholics.  Sir, 
I  disclaim  it.  I  am  not  aware  that  any  man  in  this  com- 
munity opposes  it  because  it  is  the  petition  of  Roman  Ca- 
tholics, but  because  it  comes  from  a  class  of  citizens,  highly 
respectable  and  numerous,  I  admit,  who  ask  for  this  money 
to  be  placed  under  their  own  controul.  I  am  sure  those 
with  whom  I  am  associated  do  not  oppose  it  merely  because 
it  comes  from  Roman  Catholics.  We  believe  the  Public 
School  Society  confers  on  us,  and  on  this  community,  an  ad- 
vantage, by  the  secular  instruction  of  the  rising  generation. 
We  see  daily,  multitudes  in  these  schools  of  children  who 
will  soon  be  introduced  on  the  stage  as  citizens  of  this  re- 
public, and  it  is  vastly  important  that  they  should  be 
educated  and  qualified  for  the  discharge  of  the  im- 
portant duties  of  freemen.  This  Public  School  Sys- 
tem is  preparing  them  for  that  purpose  ;  it  is  attracting  the 
attention  of  public  men  of  other  countries;  these  Schools 
are  regarded  as  the  nurseries  of  intelligent  freemen,  who 
will  hereafter  have  to  take  the  guardianship  of  the  liberties 
of  this  country:  we  are  training  up  thousands  of  citizens, 
not  only  for  New  York,  but  for  the  We^t; — New  York- 
contributes  much  to  the  population  of  this  nation,  and  the 
power  lies  with  this  Board  of  Aldermen  to  direct  their 
training  so  as  to  make  them  useful  to  their  country.  But 
there  comes  a  petition,  from  a  body  highly  respectable,  I 
admit,  who  ask,  "  Let  us  have  this  money  which  is  collect- 
ed for  a  public  purpose  and  we  will  apply  it  to  a  private 
one."  I  know  they  disclaim  sectarian  views,  if  the  money 
is  obtained;  but  if  their  views  are  not  sectarian  they 
can  find  no  valid  objection,  nor  make  no  improvement  to 
the  existing  system  of  Public  Schools.  It  is  immeasura- 
bly important  that  the  present  system  should  be  support- 
ed ;  the  gentlemen  to  whom  the  Schools  are  now  entrusted 
have  shown  themselves  amply  qualified  to  discharge  their 
duties,  and  I  hope  any  attempt  to  destroy  the  present  system 
will  be  frowned  down,  whether  it  be  made  by  Catholic,  or 
Protestant,  Christian,  or  Infidel. 

The  Rev.  Dr.  Knox,  of  the  Dutch  Reformed  Church, 
said, — 

Mr.  President, — I  should  not  have  risen  to  claim  your 
indulgence  for  a  single  moment  were  it  not  to  say  that  the 
christian  denomination  with  which  I  am  connected,  in  their 
united  sentiment  are  adverse  to  the  prayer  of  the  memorial 
now  before  you;  and  that  they  would,  unquestionably,  have 


been  here  with  a  counter  memorial,  if  they  had  not  cherish- 
ed a  confidence,  that,  in  the  hands  of  this  Corporation,  the 
matter  is  perfectly  safe.  Sir,  I  regard  the  subject  now  be- 
fore this  honourable  body  as  one  of  most  momentous  im- 
portance. The  principle  on  which  our  government  is  es- 
tablished is  of  a  character  to  exclude  all  immediate  con- 
nexion, on  the  part  of  our  government,  with  religious  things. 
All  religion  is  fully  tolerated,  fully  protected,  and  then  it 
is  left  alone,  and  there  I  hope  it  will  continue  to  be.  It  is 
not  profaned  by  the  contact  of  civil  enactments — we  have 
never  heard  of  any  "  act  of  uniformity,"  to  set  a  whole  com- 
munity by  the  ears.  Sir,  this  principle,  in  this  State,  is 
guarded  with  most  peculiar  jealousy:  there  is  not  a  minis- 
ter of  religion  that  can  even  be  appointed  as  the  Superin- 
tendent of  a  Common  School,  or  be  eligible  to  any  civil 
office.  Whe  ther  it  is  an  innovation  on  our  natural  rights, 
I  will  not  undertake  to  inquire,  but  with  the  existence  of 
such  enactments  I  feel  perfectly  satisfied.  Let  it  so  be.  In- 
terrupt this  state  of  things  and  whither  will  it  lead?  Who 
can  foretell  to  what  it  may  lead  ?  The  denomination  with 
which  it  is  my  honour  and  happiness  to  be  connected,  was 
the  fust  to  introduce  the  Gospel  of  Salvation  to  these 
shores — individuals  of  this  communion  laid  the  founda- 
tions of  this  city, — they  embraced  a  large  portion  of 
the  population  of  the  State,  and  bear  a  large  part  of  its 
burdens;  and  I  know  that  the  feeling  of  this  part  of 
our  population  is  unanimously  in  favour  of  leaving  matters 
as  they  are.  As  a  demonstration  that  they  are  disinterest- 
ed, the  particular  church  which  I  serve  has  sustained  a 
charity  school  more  than  a  century  ;  it  sustains  it  still  from 
the  private  charity  of  Christians;  and  they  never  received 
aid  from  the  State,  except  for  a  few  years,  a  few  dollars  for 
each  child,  during  the  operation  of  the  law  referred  to  last 
evening. 

Now,  personally,  in  reference  to  our  Roman  Catholic 
friends,  my  feelings  are  entirely  kind.  I  have  not  any 
other  feeling.  I  am  not  a  man  of  strife.  But  this  matter 
would  not  be  quietly  submitted  to.  Were  any  denomina- 
tion, existing  among  us,  to  put  forth  such  a  claim  as  is  now 
before  this  Board — were  the  Presbyterians  to  do  it,  we 
would  not  regard  it  as  right.  Were  the  Episcopalians,  or 
the  Methodists,  to  do  it,  we  should  not  deem  it  right.  In 
any  case,  we  should  not  feel  content  to  contribute  to  the  ge- 
neral treasury  of  the  State,  if  a  portion  of  that  treasury  were 
to  be  taken  hold  upon  by  a  particular  denomination. — 
Whilst  the  whole  spirit  of  our  government,  whether  gene- 
ral or  State,  frowns  upon  anything  that  looks  like  elevating 
one  section  of  the  Christian  community,  in  preference  to 
another,  it  would  not  be  kindly  regarded  if  the  prayer  of 
this  petition  were  complied  with,  and  a  distinction  were 
conferred  on  one  and  not  on  others.  But  while  I  say  that 
I  feel  kindness  towards  our  Roman  Catholic  friends,  can- 
dour would  require  me  to  go  a  little  further  than  many 
have  gone  who  have  addressed  you. 

With  reference  to  the  system  of  religion  by  which  they 
arc  distinguished,  I  cannot  help  regarding  it  as  differing 
from  others:  they  so  regard  it.  It  is  exclusive;  and  they 
claim  for  it  immutability  and  infallibility.  Sir,  can  Pro- 
testants, believing  as  they  do  believe,  consent  to  be  directly 
instrumental  in  elevating  to  strength,  and  in  cherishing  a 
system  like  this?  I  think  not.  I  think  the  citizens  of  this 
State  will  say  it  ought  not  to  be. 

Mr.  President,  for  myself,  I  wish  our  Catholic  fellow- 
citizens  to  enjoy  all  the  immunities  that  arc  enjoyed  by  any 
others  ;  but  with  that  I  wish  them  to  rest  content.  I  have 
sought  carefully,  and  according  to  my  best  ability,  during 
this  discussion  and  previously,  to  ascertain  what  is  the  pre- 


38 


cise  ground  of  their  dissatisfaction,  and  I  confess  I  am  not 
instructed  yet.  We  are  told  that  in  these  Common  Schools 
religion  is  not  taught;  and  in  juxtaposition  we  are  told  that 
the  Bible  is  read.  Now,  with  regard  to  the  administration 
of  those  schools,  we  have  had  abundant  testimony  both 
here  and  elsewhere,  that  they  are  conducted  with  extreme 
— with  the]very  utmost  care.  Is  disobedience  to  parents 
taught  there?  Are  they  taught  to  falsify  the  truth?  or  to 
do  a  wrong  thing?  On  the  contrary,  are  they  not  in- 
structed in  tho  common  fundamental  principles  of  morals, 
while  they  are  taught  to  read  and  write  and  to  discharge 
the  duty  of  citizens  when  they  arrive  at  maturity?  The  Bi- 
ble is  read,  as  it  ought  to  be;  and  occasionally  passages 
have  been  found  in  tho  books,  admitted  into  the  libraries, 
which  are  offensive  to  the  feelings  of  Citholic3.  These 
have  been  expurgated  as  soon  as  detected  in  every  instance 
that  I  am  aware  of.  But  is  this  a  sufficient  reason  for  so 
great  a  change?  Can  you,  or  any  gcntlemin  who  is  in 
the  habit  of  reading,  for  a  single  week  or  day,  be  perfectly 
sure  that  even  when  reading  works  of  a  select  kind  you 
shall  not  find  something  that  may  not  be  consonant  with 
your  feelings?  But  let  it  be  overlooked  and  passed  by.  Do 
these  schools  interfere  with  our  religious  instruction  of  our 
children?  Do  they  take  them  away  from  the  parent,  or 
the  pastor,  or  from  the  Sabbath  School?  Are  they  con- 
ducted by  individuals  of  the  same  faith  ?  I  believe  not.  I 
am  not  able  to  find  a  just  cause  of  complaint. 

I  have  but  a  single  remark  more,  for  I  have  observed 
tic  great  patience,  with  which  this  honourable  Council 
has  sat  to  hear  the  remarks  of  gentleman  both  yesterday 
and  to  day,  and  I  am  unwilling  to  occupy  more  than 
another  moment  of  their  time  on  a  single  point.    The  gen- 
tleman who   first   addressed   you   yesterday  afternoon, 
throughout  the  whole  of  his  exceedingly  able  and  eloquent 
address,  laboured  this  one  point,  to  endeavour  to  produce 
an  impression  on  the  minds  of  this  Common  Council  that  a 
false  issue  had  been  started — that  they  do  not  want  the  pub- 
lic money  to  aid  them  in  communicating  religious  instruc- 
tion.    Why,  Mr.  President,  it  is  strange  that  this  single 
idea  was  not  lost  sight  of  during  that  long,  able,  and  elo- 
quent address  of  more  than  two  hours'  duration.    But,  sir, 
ifthev  are  willing  to  pledge  themselves  to  give  no  religious 
instruction  in  their  schools,  why  not  allow  their  children 
to  go  to  the  common  schools  during  school  hours,  and  after- 
wards give  them  religous  education  ?     I  confess,  I  do  not 
know  how  this  can  be  so.    The  only  answer  I  can  myself 
imagine  is  this,  that  upon  the  whole  there  is  an  influence 
exerted  by  a  contact  with  the  children  in  these  schools, 
adverse  to  feelings  of  reverence  for  Catholic  peculiarities. 
That  must  be  it.    Well,  now  is  it  so?    Sir  my  children 
are  exposed  by  mingling  with  the  community,  to  things 
which  are  adverse  to  their  feelings — if  you  chose,  their 
prejudices  ;  they  may,at  the  same  time  meet  with  things 
which  reflect  on  their  family,  and  on  their  associations — 
their  religious  associations  and  their  other'associations 
too,— does  that  weaken  their  attachment  to  those  associa- 
tions ?    No  it  strengthens  them.    They  at  once  say  those 
persons  don't  think  as  I  do,  they  don't  feel  as  I  do.  We 
may  be  taunted  about  our  pastors  or  our  faith  ;  does  that 
lesson  our  attachment  to  them  ?    I  think  not.    We  think 
we  are  right  and  they  are  wrong,  and  Ave  let  it  pass.  Sir 
I  repeat,  though  I  am  not  delegated  to  attend  here  to  tell 
it,  that  these  sentiments  pervade  the  denomination  which 
I  represent,  and  with  the  expression  of  that  fact  I  will  re- 
tire, and  not  trouble  the  board  any  longer. 

The  Rev.  Dr.  Bangs,  of  the  Methodist  Episcopal 
Church,  said — 


Sir, — I  avail  myself  of  the  liberty  which  your  resolution 

gives  m3,to  mike  one  or  two  remarks.    It  might  be  in- 
ferred by  soim,  from  thi  position  we  occupy  here,  that  we 
a;)j)3ar  lure  as  a  sect  to  vindicate  our  sectarian  principles 
and  rights.    Now  if  such  an  imoression  should  have  ex- 
isted 1  wish  to  correct  it.    We  appear  here  simply,  with 
the  rest  of  oar  fellow-citizens,  for  the  purpose  of  opposing 
whit  we  conceive  to  be  an  unjust  application.    We  have 
nothing  to  ask  for.    We  do  not  ask  for  a  portion  of  the 
public  money  to  enable  us  to  educate  our  children.  The 
tim9  was  when   the  Methodist  Episcopal   Church  had 
a  flourishing  Chirity  School  which  they  supported  for 
upwards  of  forty  years  without  a  cent  from  the  public 
distribute  a  portion  iu  the  city  of  New-York  amoii"  the 
fund ;  but  when  the  legislature  of  the  State  concluded  to 
charity  schools,  we  received  our  proportion,  and  at  the  first, 
when  a  motion  was  mide  to  take  it  out  of  the  hands  of 
charity  schools  and  give  it  to  the  Public  Schools  we  did  re- 
monstrate with  others.    But  we  are  very  glad  to  say  that 
since  we  have  seen  the  system  in  operation  and  viewed  its 
blessed  effects  on  the  minds  of  our  children  and  the  com- 
munity  wo  joyfully  acquiesce  in  the  decision  of  the  Com- 
mon Council  on  that  subject.    There  is  one  objection 
mide  to  this  system  which  somewhat  surprised  me.  It 
was  stated,  if  I  did  not  misunderstand  it,  that  by  taking 
these  children  and  sending  them  to  these  schools  they  are 
taken  out  of  the  hands  of  their  parents  and  delivered  over 
to  tho  hands  of  the  public  officer  of  the  State.    Why,  Sir, 
this  is  very  extraordinary.    Suppose  our  brethren  of  tha 
Romm  Catholic  Church  established  their  schools,  for  they 
have  them,  I  suppose,  do  they  not  take  their  children, 
during  school  hours,  from  the  hands  of  their  parents? 
Are  they  not  for  the  time  being  taken  out  of  the  domes- 
tic circle,  and  delivered  over  to  the  hands  of  the  public 
teacher?    And  does  not  every  father  and  mother,  when 
they  resign  their  children  to  a  school,  an  academy,  or  a 
college,  deliver  them  out  of  their  hands  for  the  time 
being  f    But,  sir,  the  sending  of  children  to  public 
schools  in  this  city,  is  not  taking  them  out  of  the  hands 
of  the  domestic  government  ;  the  schools  are  established 
in  the  midst  of  us;  we  can  send  our  children  to  them 
and  they  are  only  absent  from  us  about  six  hours,  and 
the  rest  of  the  time  they  are  with  us     How,  then,  pray 
tell  me,  have  these  schools  invaded  the  authority  of  the 
father  and  mother?    There  is  another  point.    If  I  did 
not  misunderstand  the  senior  pastor  of  the  Roman  Cath- 
olic Church,  he  told  us  that  the  instruction  in  these 
schools  tended  to  infidelity.    He  disclaimed  any  inten- 
tion to  charge  this  upon  the  principles  of  the  managers 
of  that  institution,  but  he  said  the  system  itself  tended 
to  infidelity.  Now,  sir,  what  is  thegrea>t  bulwark  against 
Infidelity  '.    Is  it  not  the  Bible,  sir  '.    What  are  all  the 
commentaries,  what  are  all  the  dissertations  that  wera 
ever  written,  even  the  most  learned,  in  comparison  with 
the  Bible  ?    Are  we  to  suppose  that  any  human  teaching 
in  the  Roman  Catholic  schools  will  be  paramount  to  the 
Bible  in  checking  the  overflowings  of  Infidelity  ?  Would 
I  trust  myself  or  my  denomination  in  preference  to  the 
Bible  1    No,  sir.    The  Bible  contains  its  own  evidence 
of  its  own  truth  ;  it  reflects  its  own  light,  unobscured 
by  the.  commentaries  of  feeble  man  ;  and  are  we  to  be 
told  that  the  Holy  Scriptures  without  note  and  comment 
will  lead  to  Infidelity  ?  If  I  mistake  not,  one  of  the  Trus- 
tees told  us  that  the  Holy  Scriptures  were  read  every 
day,  and  that  the  children  were  taught  that  God  made 
them,  and  that  he  saw  llu  ir  thoughts,  words,  and  actions, 
and  these  we  know  are  the  Prut  principles  of  revealed 


33 


religion,  in  opposition  to  sectarianism ;  and  in  all  this 
what  testimony  have  we  that  these  schools  tend  to  Infi- 
delity ?  For  what  shall  we  change  the  Bible,  the  Holy 
Book  of  God  which  announces  divine  truths  to  man  ! 
Shall  we  exchange  this  Bible  for  the  teaching  of  the  Ro- 
man Catholic  school  master?  Which  is  the  best  adapt- 
ed to  stem  the  flood  of  Infidelity?  But  they  don't  de- 
sign to  teach  sectarianism  !  What  then?  1  rejoice  to 
be  able  to  say  here,  and  I  believe  the  Right  Rev.  gentle- 
man will  join  with  me|in  saying,  that  he  believes  in  one 
God,  in  one  Saviour,  in  the  Holy  Ghost,  the  forgiveness 
of  sins,  the  regeneration  of  the  heart  by  the  Holy  Spirit, 
justification  by  faith,  and  in  a  future  clay  of  judgment.  I 
believe  he  will  join  with  me,  or  any  one  else,  in  the  be- 
lief of  these  truths.  Are  they  not  the  truths  of  the  Bi- 
ble? And  may  not  these  truths  be  taught  our  children  1 
Are  they  not  taught  in  Roman  Catholic  schools  ?  What, 
then,  do  they  desire  to  teach  ?  Why,  the  peculiarities 
of  their  system,  and  nothing  else,  for  all  these  leading 
truths  are  taught  in  the  Bible.  He  wants  something,  I  pre- 
sume, that  is  not  in  the  Bible,  for  the  Bible  is  taught 
there,  and  if  anything  else  is  to  be  taught  that  is  not  in 
the  school,  it  must  be  something  that  is  not  in  the  Bible, 
and  therefore  it  must  be  sectarian.  Now  we  have  ar- 
rived at  an  age  in  our  Republic  when  we  see  the  different 
sects  and  denominations,  though  they  may  not  agree  in 
all  things,  agreeing  in  all  leading  points — on  these  we 
can  meet  and  unite,  and  strengthen  each  ethers  hands  to 
do  good  in  our  day  and  generation.  We  therefore,  as  a 
denomination,  unite  with  our  brethren  of  other  denomi- 
tions,  and  those  of  no  denomination,  or,  in  other  words, 
with  the  representatives  of  every  Society,  to  say,  let  this 
fund  be  appropriated  as  it  was  intended  to  be,  and  let  all 
share  alike  in  the  education  of  the  rising  generation.  For 
myself,  I  could  go  still  farther  than  has  been  gone,  and 
say  that  these  little  vagrants  that  are  suffered  io  stroll 
about  the  streets  and  spend  their  time  in  idleness,  I  would 
compel  to  enter  these  schools,  and  I  believe  it  would  be 
an  act  of  humanity,  if  their  parents  were  so  indifferent  to 
the  welfare  of  their  children  that  they  allowed  them  to 
spend  their  time  in  idleness,  or  something  worse.  Let 
the  State  extend  the  hand  of  compassion,  and  take  them 
out  of  the  streets  to  be  taught,  where  they  will  be  saved 
from  vicious  indigencies  ;  and  I  hope  the  time  will  yet 
come  when  it  will  be  done. 

The  Rev.  Dr.  Spring  of  the  Brick  (Presbyterian) 
church,  said,  Mr.  President,  as  much  time  has  been 
consumed,  as  this  question  has  been  abundantly  discus- 
sed, and  with  great  ability,  especially  by  the  learned 
counsel  ;  had  I  not  been  urged  to  say  a  word  on  behalf 
of  the  Presbyterian  church,  I  should  not  have  claimed 
your  attention.  I  am  not  authorized  by  the  Presbyterian 
Church,  as  a  church,  to  attend  here  ;  but  if  I  had,  I 
would  have  paid  more  particular  attention  to  the  subject 
than  I  have  done.  I  can  say  with  my  worthy  brother  of 
the  Dutch  Reformed  Church,  that  the  sentiment  of  the 
church  at  large  with  which  I  am  connected,  is  one  of 
entire  unanimity  of  ardent  and  cordial  opposition  to  the 
petition  which  is  now 'before  you  from  the  Roman  Ca- 
tholic church.  I  will  state  Sir,  but  a  single  fact,  without 
recapitulating  the  valuable  remarks  of  the  other  gentle- 
men, which  has  rested  on  my  mind  and  may  have  some 
weight  in  the  bosom  of  some  gentlemen  with  whom  the  de- 
cision rests.  In  the  providence  of  God,  Sir,  having  been 
more  than  thirty  years  in  this  city,  I  have  had  opportuni- 
ties of  watching  the  progress  of  the  Public  School  So- 
ciety, and  of  knowing  some  of  its  history  in  that  period 


of  time.    When  it  was  separated  from  the  churches,  as 

such  and  assumed  its  present  shape,  it  was  asolemn  matter 
of  compromise  and  eontract  on  the  part  of  the  corporation 
and  the  Public  School  Society,  1  do  not  say  it  was  a 
contract  in  writing,  but  this  was  the  understanding  of  all 
our  churches  :  W  e  were  solicited  to  give  up  our  rights 
and  denominational  feelings,  to  which  we  were  strongly 
attached,  that  this  large  scheme  might  go  into  operation 
and  spread  its  influence  over  the  community  ;  and  the  al- 
ternative with  us  was  whether  we  should  oppose  that 
great  scheme,  and  continue  the  pilfering  which  had  been 
detected  in  one  Society  with  its  unpleasant  attendant  con- 
sequences, or  aid  the  Public  School  plan.  And  we  sacri- 
ficed our  feelings  for  the  general  good  on  the  sacred  un- 
derstanding that  the  system  should  be  continued  ;  and  we 
shall  consider  it  a  violation  of  good  faith  if  you  grant  this 
application.  I  can  unite  with  some  of  my  friends  who 
have  preceded  me,  in  saying  that  if  this  application  had 
come  from  any  other  denomination,  I  would  have  oppo- 
sed it  ;  but  I  cannot  say  that  I  have  no  greater  opposition 
to  it  because  it  comes  from  my  Catholic  friends  ;  I  do 
view  it  with  more  alarm  on  account  of  the  source  from 
which  it  comes.  And  any  man  who  looks  at  the  history 
of  the  Catholic  church,  whether  in  or  out  of  power,  and 
finds  she  has  ever  been,  and  in  those  parts  of  Europe 
where  she  remains  in  power,  she  continues  to  be  almost 
uniformly  the  enemy  of  liberty,  will  look  upon  this  ap- 
plicstion  with  suspicion  and  fear.  I  do  so  not  only  as  an 
American  but  as  a  Christian,  as  a  Protestant,  and  as  a 
Presbyterian.  The  gentleman  has  sought  to  prove  that 
the  present  system  leads  to  infidelity.  Now,  Sir,  let  no 
man  think  it  strange  that  I  should  prefer  even  infidelity 
to  Catholicism.  Even  a  mind  as  acute  as  Voltaire's, 
came  to  the  conclusion  that  if  there  was  no  alternative  be- 
tween infidelity  and  the  dogmas  of  the  Catholic  church, 
he  should  choose  infidelity.  I  would  choose,  Sir,  in  simi- 
lar circumstances  to  be  an  infidel  to-morrow. 

Mr.  President,  my  worthy  father,  I  would  call  him 
brother,  for  my  hairs  are  almost  as  grey  as  his,  has  well 
said  that  the  great  barrier  to  infidelity  is  the  Bible.  But 
Sir,  the  Right  Rev.  Gentleman  told  us  yesterday  he 
had  no  confidence  in  the  Protestant  Bible  ;  and  yet  you 
heard  him,  when  he  came  to  a  community  of  Protestant 
citizens,  ask  for  the  bounty  of  the  State  to  support  such 
a  system  as  his  !  With  you,  Gentlemen,  the  power  re- 
mains. I  need  not  now  after  what  has  been  said,  indeed 
this  would  not  be  the  proper  place,  urge  any  arguments 
at  length  on  this  subject,  and  therefore,  I  will  not  further 
trespass  on  your  time  ;  nor  need  I  scarcely  ask  pardon 
for  detaining  you  so  long,  having  been  myself  urged  to 
say  something  on  behalf  of  the  church  with  which  I  am 
connected. 

The  President  said  the  closing  remarks  would  be 
given  to  the  petitioners. 

Mr.  Ketcham  observed,  that  if  any  new  matter  were 
introduced,  he  hoped  he  should  have  the  opportunity  to 
reply.  The  Right  Rev.  Gentleman  opened  on  the  part  of 
the  petitioners  ;  he  had  been  replied  to,  and  it  was  but 
right  that  he  should  have  the  right  to  reply  to  the  other 
speakers  ;  but  if  he  urged  new  matter  either  of  fact  or 
argument,  he,  on  the  part  of  the  School  Society,  should 
claim  the  right  to  reply  to  that  new  matter. 

The  President  called  upon  the  right  Rev.  Dr  Hughes 
to  conclude  the  debate. 

The  Right  Rev.  Bishop  Hughes  then  rose  to  reply  to 
the  arguments  of  all  the  gentlemen  who  had  been  heard  on 
the  subject,  and  he  spoke  nearly  as  follows  : — ■ 


AO 


Mr.  President,  it  would  require  a  mind  of  much  greater 
capacity  than  mine  to  arrange  and  mature!  the  topics,  rele- 
vant or  otherwise,  that  have  been  introduced  into  this  dis- 
cussion since  I  had  the  honour  to  address  you  yesterday. 
No  less  than  seven  or  eight  gentlemen  of  great  ability  have 
presented  their  respective  views  on  the  subject,  and  not  only 
on  the  subject  in  regard  to  its  intrinsic  merits,  but  on  sub- 
jects which  they  deemed  at  least  collateral,  but  which  I 
think  quite  irrelevant.  The  gentleman  who  last  addressed 
you  (Dr.  Spring,)  is  entitled  to  my  acknowledgments  for 
the  candour  with  which  he  expressed  his  sentiments  in  re- 
ference to  it,  namely,  that  he  was  opposed  to  it  more  because 
it  came  from  Catholics  than  if  it  had  been  presented  by  any 
other  denomination.  That  gentleman  is  entitled  to  my 
acknowledgment,  and  I  award  it,  if  worthy  of  his  accept- 
ance. The  subject— for  it  is  exceedingly  important  that 
the  subject  should  be  kept  in  view— is  one,  as  I  stated 
before,  that  is  very  simple.  We  are  a  portion  of  this 
community  ;  we  desire  to  be  nothing  greater  than  any 
other  portion  ;  we  are  not  content  to  lie  made  less.  There 
is  nothing,  sir,  in  that  system  of  the  Public  School  Socie- 
ty against  which  any  of  the  gentlemen  who  have  spoken, 
either  in  their  individual  capacity  or  as  the  representatives 
of  bodies  of  people,  have  urged  a  single  conscientious  ob- 
jection, and  of  course  they  have  no  right  to  complain— 
they  are  satisfied,  and  therefore  I  am  willing  that  they 
should  have  the  system,  but  I  am  not  willing  that  they 
should  press  it  upon  me,  and  for  good  reason.  And,  sir, 
if  this  honourable  body  rejects  the  claim  of  your  petition- 
ers, what  is  the  issue  ?  That  we  are  deprived  of  the  be- 
nefits to  which  we  are  entitled,  and  that  we  are  not  one 
iota  worse  than  we  were  before.  That  is  our  consolation. 
But  the  whole  range  of  the  argument  of  the  gentleman 
who  spoke  last  was  to  show  that  this  Public  School  Sys- 
tem was  got  up  with  the  concurrence  of  public  opinion, 
and  that  having  been  so  got  up,  it  had  worked  beautifully, 
and  that  gentlemen,  who  never  heard  of  conscientious  ob- 
jections to  it,  because  it  suits  their  views,  deem  it  won- 
derful that  we  can  have  any  conscience  at  all  on  the  sub- 
ject, That  is  the  amount  of  it.  What !  no  ground  for 
conscientious  objection,  when  you  teach  our  children  in 
those  schools  that  "  the  deceitful  Catholics"  burned  John 
Huss  at  the  stake,  for  conscience,  when  evidences  are 
numerous  before  you  of  a  more  just  and  a  more  honoura- 
ble character— when  you  might  find  on  the  page  of  his- 
tory, that  in  Catholic  Poland  every  avenue  to  dignity  in 
the  state  was  opened  to  Protestants,  by  the  concurrent  vote 
of  eight  Catholic  Bishops,  whilst  the  vote  of  any  one  of  them 
according  to  the  constitution  of  the  Polish  Diet,  of  which 
they  were  members,  could  have  prevented  the  law  being 
passea_ and  what  is  more,  when  the  first  lesson  of  uni- 
versal toleration  and  freedom  of  conscience  the  world  was 
ever  called  to  learn,  was  set  by  the  Catholics  of  Maryland 
— I  speak  in  the  presence  of  gentlemen  who  can  contra- 
dict me  if  they  know  where  to  find  the  authority — and 
what  was  this  but  homage  to  the  majesty  of  conscience  by 
a  Church  which  they  wish  to  establish  as  a  persecuting 
Church.  That  Church,  sir,  which  the  gentleman  has 
come  here  to  prove  justifies  the  murdering  of  hererics,  was 
the  first  to  teach  a  lesson  which  Protestants  have  been 
slow  to  learn,  and  imitate  but  which  the  religion  they 
profess  should  have  taught  them.  But  not  these  examples 
alone  ;  there  are  hundreds  more.  At  this  day  in  Bel- 
«ium,  where  Protestants  are  in  a  minority  of  one  to  twelve, 
the  state  votes  them  an  equal  portion,  and  where  their 
clergy  are  married,  a  larger  portion,  and  that  with  the  con- 
currence of  the  Council  and  the  Catholic  Bishops.  The 


gentleman  need  not  tell  me  of  Catholicism  ;  I  know  it 
well ;  and  what  is  more,  I  know  Protestantism  well  ;  and 
I  know  the  professions  of  good  will  of  Protestants  do  not 
always  correspond  with  their  feelings.  But  I  should  like 
to  know  whether  or  not  in  Protestantism  they  find  autho- 
rity for  persecuting  to  the  knife,  not  Catholics  alone,  but 
each  other,  even  after  they  have  proclaimed  the  right  of 
every  man  to  think  for  himself.  With  good  reason  sir,  do 
I  contend  for  conscience,  but  they  may  think  a  Catholic 
has  no  right  to  have  a  conscience  at  all.  They  may  think 
because  this  system  is  beautiful  in  their  view,  that  this 
pretension  to  conscience  on  the  part  of  Catholics  ought  to 
be  stifled,  as  a  thing  not  to  be  admitted  at  all.  But  that 
will  not  do.  Man  in  this  country  has  a  right  to  the  exer- 
cise of  conscience,  and  the  man  that  should  raise  himself 
up  against  it  will  find  that  he  has  raised  himself  up  against 
a  tremendous  opponent.  Now,  what  is  it  we  ask  ?  You 
have  heard  from  beginning  to  end  the  arguments  on  this 
occasion,  and  though  I  may  not  follow  the  wanderings  of 
this  discussion  through  all  its  minute  parts,  if  I  pass  over 
any  part,  be  assured  it  is  not  from  any  desire  to  avoid 
or  any  inability  to  refute  what  has  been  said  against 
us.  I  may  pass  over  many  points,  but  I  will  not 
pass  over  any  great  principle,  and  you  have,  no  doubt, 
given  so  much  attention  to  the  subject  as  to  enable 
you,  if  I  should  not  recapitulate  the  whole,  to  decide  just- 
ly. It  has  been  urged,  that  if  you  give  Catholics  that 
which  they  now  ask,  you  will  give  them  benefits  which 
will  elevate  them  above  others  ;  but,  I contend  most  sin- 
cerely, and  most  conscientiously,  that  we  have  no  such 
idea  ;  and  when  you  shall  have  granted  the  portion  we 
claim,  if  you  should  be  pleased  to  grant  it,  I  conceive  then, 
and  not  before,  shall  we  be  in  the  enjoyment  of  the  pro- 
tection, and  not  privilege,  to  which  we  are  entitled. 
That  is  my  view  of  the  subject ;  but,  I  have  been  aston- 
ished to  perceive  the  course  of  argument  of  the  gentlemen 
who  oppose  our  claim,  generally  speaking.  What  it  is 
they  contend  for  I  cannot  determine ;  but,  it  seems  to  be 
the  preservation  of  the  existing  system.  They  were 
among  the  first  to  disclaim  the  doctrine  that  the  end  justi- 
fies the  means,  and  if  in  attaining  their  end  they  find  they 
cannot  reach  it  without  injustice,  then  as  conscientious 
and  high-minded  men,  they  should  have  paused  by  the 
way,  and  have  ascertained  whether  the  means  were 
worthy  of  them  and  of  our  glorious  country.  Yet,  sir, 
they  have  generally  overlooked  this,  and  it  is  no  new  thing 
to  find  that  they  have  laboured  to  promote  the  benefit  of  their 
own  society  at  the  sacrifice  of  the  rights  of  others.  Sir, 
it  is  the  glory  of  this  country  that  when  it  is  found  that  a 
wron<*  exists,  there  is  a  power,  an  irresistable  power,  to 
correct  the  wrong.  They  have  represented  us  as  con- 
tending to  bring  the  Catholic  Scriptures  into  the  Public 
Schools.  This  is  not  true  ;  but,  I  shall  have  occasion 
to  refer  more  particularly  to  this  by  and  bye.  They 
have  represented  us  as  enemies  to  the  Protestant  Scrip- 
tures "  without  note  and  comment,"  and  on  this  subject 
I  know  not  whether  their  intention  was  to  make  an 
impression  on  your  honorable  body,  or  to  elicit  a  sym- 
pathetic echo  elsewhere  ;  but,  whatever  their  object  was, 
they  have  represented  that  even  here  Catholics  have 
not  concealed  their  enmity  to  the  Scriptures.  Now,  if 
I  had  asked  this  honorable  board  to  exclude  the  Protes- 
tant Scriptures  from  the  Schools,  then  there  might  have 
been  some  coloring  for  the  current  calumny.  But  I  have 
not  done  so.  I  say,  gentlemen  of  every  denomination, 
keep  the  scriptures  vou  reverence,  but  do  not  force  on  me 
that  which  my  conscience  tells  me  is  wrong.    I  may  be 


41 


wrong,  as  you  may  be  ;  and  as  you  exercise  your  judg- 
ment be  pleased  to  allow  the  same  privilege  to  a  fellow 
being  who  must  appear  before  our  common  God  and  an- 
swer for  the  exercise  of  it.  I  wish  to  do  nothing  like 
what  is  charged  upon  me — that  is  not  the  purpose  for 
which,  we  petition  this  honorable  board  in  the  name  of  the 
community  to  which  I  belong  :  1  appear  here  for  other 
objects,  and  if  our  petition  be  granted  our  Schools  may  be 
placed  under  the  supervision  of  the  public  authorities,  or 
even  of  commissioners  to  be  appointed  by  the  Public 
School  Society  ;  they  may  be  put  under  the  same  super- 
vision as  the  existing  Schools  to  see  that  none  of  those 
phantoms,  nor  any  grounds  for  those  suspicions  which 
are  as  uncharitable  as  unfounded,  can  have  existence  in 
reality.  There  is  then  but  one  simple  question — will  you 
compel  us  to  pay  a  tax  from  which  we  can  receive  no 
benefit,  and  to  frequent  schools  which  injure  and  destroy 
our  religious  rights  in  the  minds  of  our  children,  and  of 
which  in  our  consciences  we  cannot  approve  ?  That  is 
the  simple  question.  Or,  will  you  appoint  some  other  sys- 
tem, or  will  you  leave  the  children  of  our  denomination  to 
grow  up  in  that  state  of  ignorance  which  the  School  Society 
has  expressed  its  desire  to  save  them  from.  Or  shall  the 
constable  be  employed,  as  one  rev.  gentleman  seems  lo  re- 
commend (Dr.  Bangs)  or  some  public  officer  to  catch  them 
and  send  them  to  school,  for  from  this  moment  in  conse- 
quence of  the  language  used,  and  the  insulting  passages 
which  those  books  contain,  Catholic  parents  will  not  send 
their  children  there,  and  any  attempts  to  enforce  attendance 
would  meet  with  vigorous  resistence  from  them.  1  have 
now  presented  what  is  in  reality  the  simple  issue  ;  it  is 
no  matter  whether  we  believe  right  or  not,  for  neither  the 
Catholic  nor  the  Protestant  religion  is  on  trial  here ;  and 
I  repeat,  therefore,  that  the  gentleman  who  represents  the 
Methodist  Church  has  taken  so  much  pains  to  distil 
through  the  minds  of  this  meeting,  a  mass  of  prejudice 
which  it  will  take  several  hours,  but  at  the  same  time  very 
little  beside,  for  me  to  refute  and  scatter  to  the  winds.  I 
shall  perhaps  not  dwell  long  on  that  part,  because  I  judge 
it  is  irrelevant,  to  the  case  in  hand,  but  still  1  shall  feel 
authorized  to  trespass  on  the  patience  of  the  meeting  a 
short  time,  though  but  a  short  time  to  remove  the  im- 
proper prejudice  which  may  have  been  created. 

Now  I  start  again  with  a  statement  of  the  question  as  I 
did  the  other  day,  and  notwithstanding  all  the  learning, 
theological,  legal,  medical,  and  1  know  not  what  beside, 
which  has  been  employed  to  oppose  our  position,  and  al- 
though I  have  had  to  meet  so  many  able  gentlemen  who 
have  been  accustomed  to  public  speaking,  I  rise  in  the 
proud  consciousness  that  not  a  solitary  principle  laid 
down  by  me,  or  laid  down  in  that  petition  has  been  re 
futed.  1  see  the  question  stand  precisely  where  it  did 
before  the  gentlemen  began  to  speak,  and  I  see  the  same 
false  issue  ;  and  1  challenge  any  gentleman  to  say  that 
it  is  not  a  false  issue — persevered  in  to  this  very  hour,  so 
that  our  argument  has  not  been  moved  one  iota ;  there 
must  therefore  be  something  powerful  in  our  plain,  unso- 
phisticated, simple,  statement,  when  all  the  reasoning 
brought  against  it  leaves  it  just  where  it  was  before. 

I  shall  now  take  the  gentlemen  in  order,  and  follow 
them  according  to  the  notes  which  I  have  taken  and  my 
recollection  of  their  arguments,  and  I  may  possibly  have 
some  difficulty  in  avoiding  a  discursive  reply.  The  first 
gentleman  (Mr.  Sedgwick)  who  spoke,  took  up  this  view, 


that  if  this  system  is  wrong  it  ought  to  be  overturned  en- 
tirely. That  1  leave  to  the  judgment  of  those  with  whom 
the  confidence  of  the  people  has  deposited  the  authority. 
He  says  that  the  people  have  a  right  to  interfere  and  to 
give  to  the  children  of  the  State  an  intellectual  education, 
that  this  must  be  carried  out  in  some  form  or  other,  and 
that  this  system  is  as  little  objet  tionable  as  any  that  could 
be  presented.  That  may  be — I  do  not  dispute  the  possf 
bility  of  it,  because  it  is  unimportant ;  but  if  he  did  mea 
to  contend  that  that  system  which  has  been  once  sanctk*. 
ed  must  continue  to  be  sanctioned,  although  its  sanction 
was  merely  by  the  tacit  consent  of  the  different  denomi- 
nations, and  although  it  should  become  violative  of  the  reli- 
gious rights  of  any,  then  he  goes  beyond  the  limits  which 
even  the  constitution  of  the  land  have  made  sacred.  I  have 
been  represented  as  endeavoring  to  create  excitement  on  this 
subject.  To  that  I  shall  refer  immediately  ;  but  I  may 
here  refer  to  my  objection  to  the  existing  system,  on  the 
ground  that  it  has  a  tendency  to  Infidelity,  and  may  ob- 
serve that  I  know  clergymen  of  other  denominations  who 
are  also  opposed  to  it  on  the  ground  of  its  Infidel  tenden- 
cy. There  are  many  who  have  the  conviction  that  it 
tends  to  Infidelity,  and  who  know  that  the  preventive  re- 
ferred to  is  not  equal  to  stem  the  tendency  to  Infidelity 
which  does  exist. 

The  first  gentleman  who  spoke,  and  he  spoke  with  a 
frankness  and  sincerity  for  which  I  give  him  credit,  con- 
tended— and  when  I  answer  his  objection  I  wish  to  be 
understood  as  speaking  to  all  that  took  up  that  objection — 
and  it  was  urged  more  or  less  by  the  whole — that  it  was 
inconsistent  to  charge  upon  the  system  a  tendency  to  in- 
fidelity, and  then  a  teaching  of  religion  and  that  this  teach- 
ing was  anti-catholic.  Now  this  would  be  inconsistent 
under  some  circumstances ;  but  the  gentleman  left  out 
the  grounds  on  which  that  charge  was  made,  and  it  will  be 
proper  therefore  that  I  should  state  those  grounds.  In 
the  document  which  emanated  from  the  Board  of  Assis- 
tants last  spring,  they  say,  that  the  smallest  particle  of  re- 
ligion is  a  disqualification,  and  that  "  Religious  instruction 
is  no  part  of  a  common  school  education."  Now  was  it 
the  intention  of  your  honourable  body  to  exclude  all  reli- 
gion 1  Was  it  the  intention  of  the  State  Legislature  ? 
Did  any  public  authority  requird  that  the  public  school 
education  should  be  winnowed  as  corn  on  a  barn  floor, 
and  all  religion  driven  out  by  the  winds  of  heaven  as  chaff 
not  worthy  to  be  preserved  ?  Was  there  such  authority  ? 
Who  made  such  a  decision  ?  And  yet  that  very  decision, 
I  ask  you,  if  we  are  not  authorized  to  interpret  as  proof  of 
the  charge,  that  the  system  has  a  tendency  to  infidelity  ? 
For,  banish  religion,  and  infidelity  alone  remains.  And 
on  the  other  hrnd,  we  find  the  gentlemen  of  the  Public 
School  Society  themselves  repeatedly  stating  that  .they 
inculcate  religion,  and  give  religious  impressions  ;  and  I 
say  it  does  them  credit,  for  as  far  as  they  can  they  ought 
to  teach  religion.  It  would  be  better  if  they  did  for  those 
who  are  satisfied  with  their  relgious  teaching.  This  ex- 
planation will  set  us  right  in  the  minds  of  your  honourable 
body.  It  is  first  said,  no  religion  is  taught,  and  then  it  is 
admitted  that  religion  is  inculcated  ;  and  next  our  petition 
is  opposed  because  it  is  alleged  that  if  our  prayer  be 
granted  religion  will  be  taught.  What  weight  then  is  the 
objection  of  the  Public  School  Society  entitled  to  if  this 
be  the  fact  ?  And  where  is  our  inconsistency  ?  If  there 
is  a  dilemma  to  whom  are  we  indebted  for  it  but  to  the 


42 


Report  of  the  Board  of  Assistants  on  the  one  hand,  and  to 
the  testimony  of  the  Public  School  Society  on  the  other  ? 
Let  us  not  then  he  charged  with  inconsistency. 

Now  sir,  I  contend  there  is  infidelity  taught.    I  do  not 
mean  in  its  gross  form  ;  but  I  have  found  principles  of  infe- 
riority in  the  books — and  one  that  would  pass  current  as  a  very 
amiablcbook — a  religious  lesson  which  I  would  not  Sutler  a 
child  to  read,  over  whom  I  had  any  influence.    The  lesson 
represents  a  father  and  his  son  going  about  on  Sunday 
morning  to  the  different  churches,  the  little  hoy  asking 
questions  as  they  pass  along  from  one  to  the  other  ;  at  last 
the  boy  said  to  his  father — I  may  not  quote  the  words  but 
I  shall  be  found  right  in  substance — "What  is  the  reason 
there  are  so  many  different  sects  ?  Why  do  not  all  people 
agree  to  go  to  the  same  place,  and  to  worship  God  in  the 
same  way?"    And  why  should  it  not  be  so,  replied  the 
father.     Why  should    they   agree?     Do   not  people 
differ  in  other  things  ?    Do  they  not  differ  in  their  taste 
and  their  dress — some  like  their  coats  cut  one-  way  and 
some  another — and  do  they  not  differ  in  their  appetites 
and  food  ?  and  in  the  hours  they  keep  and  in  their  diver- 
sion ?"    Now  I  ask  if  there  is  no  infidelity  in  that  ?  I 
ask  if  it  is  a  proper  lesson  to  teach  children  that  as  they 
have  a  right  to  form  their  own  tastes  for  dress  and  food, 
they  have  the  right  to  judge  for  themselves  in  matters  of 
religion,  for,  with  deference  to  the  Public  School  Society, 
children  are  too  young  to  have  such  principles  instilled 
into  them.    Let  them  grow  up  before  they  are  left  to  ex- 
ercise their  judgment  in  such  weighty  matters — at  least  do 
not  teach  Catholic  children  such  a  lesson  at  so  early  an 
age  ;  and  in  all  I  have  said,  I  desire  to  be  understood  as 
abstaining  most  carefully  from  prescribing  any  rule  or 
method,  or  book,  for  any  denomination  with  which  I  am 
not  connected.    But  for  Catholic  children,  I  speak,  and  I 
say,  it  is  too  early  for  them  to  judge  for  themselves.  And 
is  this  all  ?  No  sir ;  one  other  passage,  and  for  that  there 
may  perhaps  be  something  to  be  said  as  to  its  defence  be- 
cause it  is  from  the  pen  of  an  eminent  Protestant  Divine, 
the  Bishop  of  London.    I  presume  the  Bishop  of  London 
when  he  wrote  that  passage  must  have  been  writing  on 
some  subject  connected  with  Infidelity — he  must  have 
been  writing  against  Infidelity,  and  indulging  in  a  range 
of  argument  which  nii^ht  be  proper  for  such  a  sub- 
ject, but  out  of  place  in  the  hands  of  common  school  chil- 
dren.   What  was  that  passage  ?    Why  it  is  one  which 
represents  the  Divine  Redeemer  as  a  man  of  respectable 
talents. 

Mr.  Ketchum  rose,  and  intimated  his  doubt  of  such  a 
passage  being  in  the  books. 

The  Right  Rev.  Prelate  continued.  I  have  read  it  in 
their  books,  but  the  trustees  have  recalled  them,  I  hope 
not  for  the^  purpose  of  depriving  me  of  the  opportunity 
of  quoting  the  page.  Such  a  lesson  is  now  to  be 
found  in  one  of  the  books  which  represents  the  Divine 
Redeemer  as  showing  uncommon  quickness  of  pene- 
tration, and  sagacity.  I  ask  whether  such  a  lesson  is 
a  proper  one  for  children,  and  whether  such  is  the  instruc- 
tion to  be  given  to  them  of  the  Redeemer  of  the  world  ? 
The  gentleman  who  first  spoke,  said  it  was  not  in  reality 
religion  that  was  taught  but  mere  morality  that  was  incul- 
cated,— the  propriety  of  telling  the  truth  and  of  fulfilling 
all  moral  duties.  If  this  be  true  it  is  still  strange  that  the 
School  Society  should  prefer  the  word  '•  religious."  He 
did  not  deny  that  it  was  a  kind  of  religion,  and  that  the 
precepts  of  the  Decalogue  were  inculcated,  and  while 


the  Public  School  Society  admit  that  religion  is  inculcated 

and  the  h  eal  Gentleman,  iheir  representee,  does  not  dis- 
claim it  so  far  as  it  forms  the  ground  work  of  a  good  moral 
character,  it  may  be  taken  as  admitted.  And  now,  if  they 
teach  religion  let  us  know  what  it  is  to  be.  Let  them  not 
delegate  to  the  leathers,  some  of  whom  may  teach  one 
religion,  some  another,  ihe  authority  or  permission  to 
make  "  religious  impressions,"  to  give  "religious  instruc- 
tion," to  give  a  '•'  right  direction  to  the  mind  of  youth,"  and 
all  the  oilier  phrases  which  we  find  in  their  documents. 
Now  on  the  subject  of  religion  and  morals,  would  they  teach 
morals  without  religion,  which  I  conceive  will  be  found 
as  visionary  as  castle  building  in  the  air.  Mr.  Ketchum 
says  they  arc  taught  not  to  lie,  but  without  religion 
he  furni.-hes  no  motive  for  not  lying.  If  a  man  tells 
me  not  to  lie,  when  it  is  my  interest  to  lie,  I  as  a  rational 
being  want  a  motive  for  telling  the  truth.  My  love  of 
gain  tells  me  if  1  lie  and  lie  successfully  it  will  add  to  my 
fortune  ;  and  if  I  am  told  to  abstain  from  lying  at  the  risk 
of  my  fortune,  let  me  have  a  reason.  But  if  I  am  told 
there  is  God  to  whom  I  am  accountable,  that  is  a  motive, 
but  then,  it  is  a  teaching  of  religion.  Yes  sir,  when  1  am 
told  there  is  a  Cod  I  am  taught  religion,  and  thereto* I 
am  astonished  that  the  Report  which  has  gone  forth  fiom 
the  other  Hoard  should  declare  that  the  smallest  teaching  of 
religion  vitiates  the  claim.  You  may  as  well  think  to  build 
an  edifice  without  a  foundation  as  to  pretend  to  produce 
moral  effects  without  religious  belief. 

There  may  not  be  the  details  of  religion  but  there  must 
be  the  principle  to  a  certain  extent,  otherwise  you  cannot 
lay  the  foundation  of  good  morals  for  men.  Now  sir,  I 
will  show  you  that  Mr.  Stephen  Girard  of  Philadelphia, 
who  had  no  religious  belief  whatever,  in  his  Will  by  which 
he  bequeathed  large  sums  of  money  for  the  purpose  of 
procuring  great  and  material  benefits  to  society  ;  but  which 
has  been  looked  upon  by  many  Christians  of  every  denom- 
ination in  Philadelphia  rather  as  a  curse  lhan  a  blessing, — 
even  he  speaks  of  morality  without  religion  nearly  as  the 
Public  School  Society  does — He  says  : 

"  Secondly  I  enjoin  and  require  that  no  ecclesiastic, 
missionary,  or  minister  of  any  sect  whatsoever,  shall  ever 
hold  or  exercise  any  station  or  duty  whatsoever  in  the  said 
College  ;  nor  shall  any  such  person  ever  be  admitted  for 
any  purpose,  or  as  a  visitor,  within  the  premises  appro- 
priated to  the  purposes  of  the  said  College ;  on  making 
this  restriction,  I  do  not  mean  to  cast  any  reflection  upon 
any  sect  or  person  whatsoever ;  but  as  there  is  such  a 
multitude  of  sects,  and  such  a  diversity  of  opinion  amongst 
them,  1  desire  to  keep  the  tender  minds  of  the  orphans,  who 
are  to  derive  advantage  from  this  bequest,  free  from  the 
excitement  which  clashing  doctrines  and  sectarian  con- 
troversy are  so  likely  to  produce.  My  desire  is,  that  all 
the  instructors  and  teachers  in  the  college  shall  take  pains 
to  instil  into  the  minds  of  the  scholars  the  purest  princi- 
ples of  morality,  so  that,  on  their  entrance  into  active  life, 
they  may,  from  inclination  and  habit,  evince  benevolence 
towards  their  fellow  creatures,  and  a  love  of  truth,  sobrie- 
ty, and  industry ;  adopting,  at  the  same  time,  such  reli- 
gious tenets  as  their  matured  reason  may  enable  them  to 
prefer.'1 

That,  sir,  is  the  policy  of  Mr.  Girard,  who  had  no  belief 
that  was  known  to  others.  That  was  the  policy  of  a 
man  who,  so  far  as  was  known,  was  as  much  a  sceptic  as 
Voltaire  or  Rousseau.    He,  by  his  bounty  of  two  millions 


13 


of  dollars  to  the  city  of  Philadelphia,  provided  that  poor 
orphans  should  be  brought  up  to  respect  infidelity.  He 
did  not  say  a  word  against  religion,  but  he  took  care  to 
stand  by,  not  personally,  but. by  his  executors,  in  his  will, 
to  prevent  its  precepts  being  inculcated  in  the  minds  of 
those  who  are  the  dependents  on  his  bounty.  They  were 
to  have  the  purest  principles  of  morals  instilled  into  their 
minds  ;  but  the  attempt  is  vain  when  religion  is  not  placed 
as  the  foundation  of  morals. 

*  He.  like  the  Public  School  Society,  stands  by  to  see  that 
the  potter  shall  give  no  form  to  the  vase,  till  the  clay 
grows  stiff  and  hardened.    Then  it  will  be  too  late. 

The  gentleman  also  made  objections  to  our  schools, 
because,  he  said,  they  were  in  our  churches.  The  fact 
is,  we  were  obliged  to  provide  them  where  we  could,  and 
our  means  would  permit ;  and  there  are  some  of  them  in  the 
basement  of  our  churches.  And  he  conceived  it  impossible 
to  keep  them  from  sectarian  influence,  because  the  children 
would  be  within  hearing  of  the  chant  of  Divine  service  ;  as 
though  sectarianism  depended  on  geographical  distances 
from  church.  But  this  could  not  have  been  a  valid  ob- 
jection, because  the  Public  School  Society  has  had  not 
only  schools  under  churches,  but  in  the  Session  Rooms 
of  churches. 

I  shall  refer  now  to  the  learned  gentleman  who  follow- 
ed him  (Mr.  Ketchum),  and  I  can  only  say  that  this  gen- 
tleman, with  a  great  deal  of  experience  in  this  particular 
question,  really  seems  to  me  to  confirm  all  I  say  on  the 
ground  we  have  taken.  I  know  he  lectured  me  pretty 
roundly  on  the  subject  of  attending  the  meetings  held 
under  St.  James'  church.  I  know  he  did  more  for  me 
than  the  Pope  :  the  Pope  "  mitred"  me  but  once,  but  he 
did  so  three  or  four  times  during  the  course  of  his  address. 
He  read  me  a  homily  on  the  duties  of  station  ;  and  he  so 
far  forgot  his  country  and  her  principles,  as  to  call  it  a 
"  descent"  on  my  part,  when  I  mingled  in  a  popular  meet- 
ing of  freemen  But  it  was  no  descent :  and  I  hope  the 
time  will  never  come  when  it  will  be  deemed  a  descent 
for  a  man  in  office  to  mingle  with  his  fellow-citizens  when 
convened  for  legitimate  and  honorable  purposes. 

But  from  his  speech  it  would  appear,  that  his  experi- 
ence has  been  obtained  by  the  discharge  of  the  duty  of 
standing  advocate  of  denial  ;  and  yet,  with  all  his  experi- 
ence and  opportunities  of  research,  his  inability  to  over- 
turn our  grounds  confirms  me  in  the  conviction  that  they 
are  not  to  be  removed,  even  by  the  aid  of  splendid  talents  ; 
for  that  speech,  like  most  others,  went  on  the  false  issue 
that  we  want  privileges.  But  we  want  no  privilege. 
That  speech,  like  the  speech  from  the  Throne,  might 
have  been  the  speech  of  years  past,  and  might  have  been 
stereotyped;  for  its  only  novelty,  which  proved  to  me 
that  it  was  not  all  the  work  of  antiquity,  was  the  part 
which  appertained  to  myself.  And  not  only  that,  but  I 
have  to  say,  that  when  I  came  into  this  hall — and  it  is  the 
first  time  I  ever  stood  in  an  assembly  of  this  description 
— I  felt  that  I  was  thrown  on  the  hospitality  of  the  profes- 
sional gentlemen ;  and  I  think  if  I  and  that  gentleman 
could  have  exchanged  places,  I  should  not  have  looked  so 
hard  at  him  as  he  did  at  me.  In  fact,  throughout  that 
speech,  he,  with  peculiar  emphasis,  and  a  manner  which 
he  may,  perhaps,  have  acquired  in  his  practice  in  courts 
of  law,  fixed  upon  me  a  steady  gaze — and  he  has  no  or- 
dinary countenance — and  addressed  me  so  solemnly,  that 
I  really  expected  every  moment  he  would  forget  himself, 
and  say  "  The  prisoner  at  the  bar."    (Laughter.)    He  did 


not,  however.  He  passed  that  over ;  and  whilst  I  recoct 
nize  and  respect  the  "  human  face  divine,"  because  God 
made  it  to  look  upward,  I  may  here  observe,  that  it  has 
no  power  to  frighten  me,  even  if  it  would  be  terrible  •  and 
therefore  I  was  not  at  all  disturbed  by  the  hard  looks 
which  he  gave  me.  The  gentleman  will  pardon  me,  I 
hope,  in  this,  for  it  is  natural  enough,  after  what  has  been 
said — though  I  know  it  was  said  in  good  humour,  to  claim 
the  privilege  to  retort. 

Well,  sir,  this  was  not  all,  but  he  told  us  something 
about  going  to  the  stake.  He  was  sure,  if  any  of  the  pub- 
lic money  was  voted  to  the  denomination  of  a  reverend 
gentleman  whose  name  I  will  not  mention,  the  Catholics 
would  go  to  the  stake.  Now,  sir,  we  have  no  intention  to 
do  so.  We  know  the  public  money  does  go  to  the  sup- 
port of  religion  ;  it  goes  to  the  support  of  chaplaincies, 
theological  seminaries,  universities,  and  chaplains  of  in- 
stitutions whose  appointments  are  permanent ;  and  be  it 
remembered,  that  one  of  the  first  lectures  delivered  in 
one  institution,  the  University  of  this  city,  which  was  aided 
from  the  public  funds,  was  on  the  anti-republican  tendency 
of  Popery.  And  yet  we  did  not  go  to  the  Stake  for  that ; 
and  why  ?  Because,  though  our  portion  of  taxation  min- 
gles with  the  rest,  we  have  no  objections  to  the  use  of  it 
which  the  law  prescribes,  so  long  as  no  inalienable  rights 
of  our  own  are  involved  in  the  sacrifice. 

But,  again,  he  said,  if  any  of  the  money  was  appropri- 
ated to  the  Catholic  religion,  Protestants  would  go  to  the 
stake.  I  will  not  say  whether  Protestants  are  so  exclu- 
sive ;  while  we  submit  to  taxation  for  protestant  purposes, 
without  going  to  the  stake,  whether,  if  we  participate, 
they  will  go  to  the  stake,  is  not  for  me  to  say. 

Then  he  came  to  the  Protestant  Bible,  "  without  note 
or  comment ;"  and  "  it  was  hard  for  him  to  part  with  that 
translated  Bible."  He  stood  by  it,  and  repeated  that  "  it 
was  hard  to  give  up  the  Bible,"  just  as  if  I  had  said  one 
Avord  against  it ;  and  as  if  I  was  about  to  bring  the  Pope 
to  banish  it  out  of  the  Protestant  world,  or  wished  to  de- 
prive any  man  who  venerates  it  of  any  use  he  may  think 
proper  to  make  of  it.  And  there,  again,  he  looked  so 
much  as  if  he  were  in  earnest,  that,  at  one  time,  I  thought 
he  was  actually  about  to  rush  to  the  "  stake."  But  there 
was  no  stake  there  to  go  to,  except  that  which  he  holds 
in  the  exchequer  of  the  Public  SctiooI  Society.  It  is  a 
most  comfortable  way  of  going  to  martyrdom. 

Sir,  the  gentleman  taunted  me  for  having  attended  the 
public  meetings  of  Catholics  on  this  subject,  and  he  im- 
puted the  prejudice  which  exists  against  the  Public  School 
system  to  the  observations  I  have  made,  as  though  it  were 
of  my  creation.  In  answer  to  that  I  may  state,  what  has 
been  the  fact  for  years,  that  Catholics  have  been  strug- 
gling to  have  schools,  and  to  the  extent  of  their  means  we 
have  them ;  and  what  is  the  reason  ?  Do  you  suppose 
that  we  should  impose  additional  burdens  upon  ourselves, 
if  we  were  satisfied  with  those  public  schools?  Do  you 
suppose  we  should  have  paid  for  our  bread  a  second  time, 
if  that  which  these  schools  offered  had  not,  in  our  opinion, 
been  turned  to  a  stone  ?  No,  the  existence  of  our  own 
schools  proves  that  I  have  not  excited  the  prejudice  ;  but 
still  it  is  at  all  times  my  duty  to  warn  my  people  agains 
that  which  is  destructive  or  violative  to  the  religion  they  pro- 
fess ;  and  if  they  abandon  their  religion  they  are  free  ; — but 
so  long  as  they  are  attached  to  our  religion,  it  is  my  duty,  as 
their  pastor,  as  the  faithful  guardian  of  their  principles  and 
morals,  to  warn  them  when  there  is  danger  of  imbibing  poi- 


44 


son  instead  of  wholesome  food.  That  is  the  reason  ;  and 
I  am  sorry  that  he  has  not  found  a  motive  less  unworthy 
of  me  than  that  he  has  been  pleased  to  assign. 

Then  and  I  may  as  well  take  up  the  question  now  as 

elsewhere— it  has  been  said  that  it  is  conceived  to  be  an 
inconsistency  in  our  argument,  that  we  object  to  the  Pub- 
lic Schools  because  religion  is  taught  in  them,  and  yet,  in 
the  schools  which  we  propose  to  establish,  or  rather, 
which  we  have  established,  but  for  which  we  now  plead, 
we  profess  to  teach  no  sectarianism  ;  and  the  question 
arises,  "  if  you  are  opposed  to  religion  in  these  schools 
because  it  is  sectarianism,  how  can  you  teach  religion  in 
your  schools,  and  yet  your  schools  not  be  sectarian?" 
This  is  the  position  in  which  they  place  us  ;  and  in  an- 
swer I  have  to  state,  that,  in  the  first  place,  we  do  not  in- 
tend to  teach  religion.  We  shall  be  willing  that  they 
shall  be  placed  under  the  same  inspection  that  the  Public 
Schools  are  now  ;  and  if  it  should  be  found  that  religion 
is  taught,  we  will  be  willing  that  you  shall  cut  them  off. 
You  shall  be  the  judges.  You  may  see.  that  the  law  is 
complied  with,  and  if  we  violate  it,  let  us  be  deprived  of 
the  benefits  for  which  the  conditions  were  prescribed. 
But  there  is  neutral  ground  on  which  our  children  may 
learn  to  read  and  cipher.  If  they  read,  it  must  be  somc- 
thin<r  that  is  written  ;  words  are  signs  of  ideas,  and 
in  the  course  of  their  instruction  they  may  be  made  so  to 
shape  their  studies,  as  to  loathe  Catholicism,  without 
learning  any  other  religion.  And  this  could  be  produced, 
not  alone  in  reference  to  Catholics,  but  Presbyterians, 
Methodists,  Unitarians,  or  any  other.  They  might  find 
that  their  children  disregard  their  own  religion,  while  they 
are  not  taught  any  other.  Suppose  the  Prcsbyterinns,  or 
any  other  denomination,  were  in  the  minority,  and  Catho- 
lics were  numerically  what  Protestants  are  now,  and 
therefore  were  able  to  decide  what  lessons  their  children 
should  read  in  these  schools,  I  ask  you  if  the  gentleman 
would  not  conceive  he  had  reasonable  objections,  if  they 
had  forced  upon  them  a  system  of  education  which  teaches 
that  their  denomination,  past,  present,  and  to  come,  was 
deceitful  ?  Now,  take  up  these  books,  which  teach  all 
that  is  infamous  in  our  history ;  which  teach  our  children 
about  the  "  execution  of  Cranmer,"  the  burning  of  Huss, 
and  "  the  character  of  Luther."  If  such  a  practice  were 
reversed,  what  would  he  do? 

Now,  in  our  schools,  I  would  teach  them — I  would 
aive  our  children  lessons  for  exercise  in  reading,  that 
should  teach  them  that  when  the  young  tree  of  American 
liberty  was  planted,  it  was  watered  with  Catholic  blood, 
and  that  therefore  we  have  as  much  right  to  every  thing 
common  in  this  country  as  others.  1  should  teach  them 
that  Catholic  Bishops  and  Catholic  Barons  at  Runney- 
mede  wrung  the  charter  of  our  liberties — the  grand  parent 
of  all  known  liberty  in  the  world — from  the  hands  of  a 
tvrant.  I  should  teach  them  where  to  find  the  bright 
spots  no  our  history,  though  the  gentleman  who  re- 
presents the  Methodists  knew  not  where  they  were 
to  be  found.  This  I  would  do,  and  should  I  violate 
the  law  ?  If,  instead  of  the  burning  of  Huss,  I  gave  them 
a  chapter  on  the  character  of  Charles  Carroll  of  Carroll- 
ton,  as  a  reading  lesson,  would  that  be  teaching  them  of 
Purgatory,  and  the  doctrine  of  Transubstantiation.  ? 

But  if  our  circumstances  were  reversed,  so  that  Cath- 
olics controlled  the  public  schools,  would  not  Presby- 
terians have  a  right  to  complain  ? — and  should  not  we  be 
tyrants  while  we  refused  to  listen  to  their  complaints,  if 


we  spread  before  their  children  lessons  on  the  burning  of 

Servetus  by  Calvin,  and  on  the  hangings  of  members  of 
the  Society  of  Friends  by  those  who  held  Calvin's  doc- 
trines ?  I  should  listen  to  their  appeal  in  such  a  case  with 
feelings  far  different  from  those  manifested  by  thern  in 
regard  toothers.  But  I  would  do  more,  in  order  that  those 
little  vagrants  ;of  whom  the  gentleman  speaks  might  come 
into  school.  Their  parents  themselves  having  by  perse- 
cution been  deprived,  in  many  instances,  of  an  education, 
do  not  fully  appreciate  its  advantages,  and  if  you  seek  to 
enforce  the  attendance  of  their  children,  they  will  resist; 
if  you  attempt  to  coerce  them  you  will  not  succeed.  But 
if  you  put  tbem  in  a  way  to  be  admitted  without  being 
dragged  by  force  to  the.  school,  or  without  destroying 
their  religious  principles  when  they  enter,  (which  you 
have  no  right  to  do,)  then  you  will  prepare  good  citizens, 
educated  to  the  extent  that  will  make  them  useful  to  their 
country.  Then  their  parents,  having  confidence  in  their 
pastors,  will  send  their  children  to  schools  approved  of 
by  them — and  the  children  themselves  may  attend  schools 
where  they  need  not  be  ashamed  of  their  creed,  and  where 
their  companions  will  not  call  them  "  Papists,"  and  tell 
them  that  ignorance  and  vice  are  the  accompaniments  of 
their  religion.  That  will  be  the  result,  and  1  conceive  it 
will  be  beneficial. 

Much  has  been  said  about  the  distinction  between 
morality  and  religion,  and  about  those  certain  broad  prin- 
ciples on  which  it  is  thought  all  can  agree.  And  yet  our 
opponents  contend,  and  I  am  surprised  at  the  circum- 
stance— gentlemen  who  are  not  only  christians  themselves 
but  christian  ministers,  contend  all  through,  for  the  rights 
of  those  who  are  not  of  the  Christian  religion,  but  are 
commonly  called  Infidels.  An  attempt  has  been  made 
to  draw  a  distinction  between  morality  and  religion.  I 
have  already  said,  and  there  is  not  a  gentleman  here  who 
will  protend  to  deny  it, that  morality  mu3t  reston  religion  for 
its  basis.  I  refer  you,  and  it  is  not  an  ordinary  authority,  to 
ain;i:i  who  passed  through  life  with  the  most  beautiful  char- 
acter and  (he  most  blameless  reputation,  that  ever  fell  to 
the  lot  of  a  public  man — one  who  was  distinguUhed  almost 
above  all  other  men;  one,  of  whom  it  would  be  profane  to 
say  that  he  was  inspired,  yet,  of  whom  history  has  not 
banded  down  one  useless  action,  or  one  single  idle  word, 
a  man  who  left  to  his  country  an  inheritance  of  the  bright- 
est example,  and  the  fairest  name  that  ever  soldier  or 
statesman  be  queathed  to  a  nation — lhat  man  was  George 
Washington.  Hear  what  he  says  in  his  Frf.wi.ll  Ad- 
dress, on  the  attempt  now  being  made  to  preserve  morality 
whilst  religion  is  discarded  from  the  public  schools. 

':  Of  all  the  dispositions  and  habits  which  lead  to  political  pros- 
perity, religion  and  morality  are  indispensable  supports.  In  vain 
would  that  man  claim  the  tribute  of  patriotism,  who  should  labor  to 
subvert  these  great  pillars  of  human  happiness,  these  firmest  prop3 
of  the  duiies  of  men  and  citizens.  The  mere  politician,  equally 
with  the  pious  man,  ought  to  respect  and  to  che  ish  them.  A  vol- 
ume could  not  trace  all  their  connexions  with  private  and  public  fe- 
licity. Let  it  be  simply  asked,  where  is  the  security  for  property, 
for  reputation,  for  life,  if  the  sense  of  religious  obligations  desert 
the  oaths,  which  are  the  instruments  of  investigation  in  courts  of 
justice  ?  And  let  us  with  caution  indulge  the  supposition,  that  mo- 
rality can  be  maintained  without  religion.  Whatever  may  be  con- 
ceded to  the  influence  of  refined  education  on  minds  of  peculiar  struc- 
ture, reason  and  experience  both  forbid  us  to  expect  that  national 
morality  can  prevail  in  exclusion  of  religious  principle. 

"  'Tis  substantially  true,  that  virtue  or  morality  is  a  necessary 
spring  of  popular  government.  The  rule  indeed  extends  with  more 
or  less  force  to  every  species  of  free  government.  Who  that  is  a 
a  sincere  friend  to  it  can  look  with  indifference  upon  attempts  to 
shake  the  foundation  of  the  fabric  ?" 


45 


Such  is  the  warning,  the  solemn  warning  of  this  great 
man.  If  you  take  away  religion,  on  what  foundation  do 
you  propose  to  iear  the  structure  of  morality  ?  No — 
they  stand  to  each  other  in  the  relation  of  parent  and  off- 
spring, or  rather  they  are  kindred  principles  from  the  same 
divine  source,  and  what  God  has  joined  together,  let  no 
man- put  asunder. 

Now,  with  regard  to  all  said  by  me  against  the  Pro- 
testant Bible,  I  appeal  to  this  honorable  body  whether 
I  ever  said  one  word  hostile  to  that  Bible ;  and  yet,  from 
the  address  of  the  gentlemen  on  the  other  side,  men  abroad 
who  should  read  their  speeches,  would  be  led  to  believe 
that  I  not  only  entertained,  but  that  I  had  uttered  senti- 
ments of  hostility  to  that  work.    And  it  is  ever  thus  that 
our  principles  and  our  feelings  are  misrepresented,  while 
gentlemen  profess  to  be  conscious  of  entertaining  no  pre- 
judice against  us  as  Catholics.   One  gentleman,  however, 
avowedliis  hostility  to  us  on  this  ground,  and  for  his  can- 
dor I  tender  my  acknowledgment.    The  whole  effort  of 
some  of  the  gentlemen,  indeed  of  all  who  have  spoken  on 
the  subject,  has  been  to  show  that  the  system  must  be 
made  so  broad  and  liberal  that  alt  can  agree  in  it — but  I 
think  they  contend  for  too  much  -when  they  wish  so  to 
shape  religion  and  balance  it  on  its  pedestal  as  to  make  it 
suit  every  body  and  every  sect ;  for  if  Infidels  are  to  be 
suited,  and  it  is  made  to  reconcile  them  to  the  system,  I 
want  to  know  whether  Catholics,  or  any  other  class,  are 
not  entitled  to  the  right  to  have  it  made  to  suit  them. — 
And  if  every  body  is  to  be  made  satisfied,  why  is  it  that 
Catholics  and  others  are  discontented  and  excluded  ?  Is 
it  not  manifest  that  what  they  profess  to  accomplish  is 
beyond  their  reach  I    Now  the  Infidels  have  found  able 
advocates  in  the  Rev.  gentlemen  who  have  spoken  in  the 
course  of  this  discussion — I  mean  the  interests  of  Infidel- 
ity— and  why  is  it  then,  that  the  gentlemen  who  plead 
for  that  side  of  the  question,  enter  their  protest  against 
ours  !    I  should  like  to  know  why  there  is  this  inconsis- 
tency.   If  the  rule  is  to  be  general,  why  is  it  not  general ! 
I  pass  now  to  the  reasoning  of  one  learned  gentleman  who 
spoke  yesterday,  and  defended  the  Protestant  Bible.  Now 
this  was  unnecessary  in  that  gentleman — it  was  in  him  a 
work  of  superorogation  to  vindicate  the  Protestant  Scrip- 
tures— it  was  useless  to  defend  a  point  which  had  not 
been  attacked.    It  was  time  lost ;  and  yet,  perhaps,  not 
altogether  lost,  for  in  some  respects  it  may  have  been 
profitable  enough.    In  entering  on  its  defence,  he  said  it 
■was  the  instrument  of  human  liberty  throughout  the  world 
— wherever  it  was,  there  was  light  and  liberty  ;  and 
where  it  was  not,  there  was  bondage  and  darkness  ;  and 
he  brought  it  round  so  that  he  almost  asserts  that  our 
Declaration  of  Independence  had  been  copied  from  the 
Bible.    No  doubt  the  just  and  righteous  principles  on 
■which  that  Declaration  has  its  foundation  have  their 
sanction  in  the  Bible,  but  I  deny  their  immediate  con- 
nection, and  on  historical  grounds,  for  it  is  known  that 
its  author  looked  upon  St.  Paul  as  an  imposter  ;  conse- 
quently their  connection  is  not  historically  true.  But 
while  the  gentleman  referred  to  our  notes,  (but  which 
we  disown  and  repudiate,)  as  containing  principles  of  per- 
secution—how was  it  that  after  the  Protestant  Bible, 
"without  note  and  comment,"  came  into  use,  every  de- 
nomination of  Protestants  in  the  whole  world  that  had  the 
misfortune,  for  it  must  have  been  a  misfortune,  to  be 
yoked  to  civil  power,  wielded  the  sword  of  persecution, 
and  derived  theiratithority  for  so  doing  from  the  naked  text. 


Yes,  in  Scotland,  iu  all  her  confessions  of  faith — in  Eng- 
land, and  I  appeal  to  her  penal  laws  against  Catholics, 
and  those  acts  by  which  the  Puritans  and  Dissenters 
were   pursued,  men   who   had   the   misfortune,  like 
ourselves,  to    have  a   conscience,  were    driven  out, 
and  all  was  done  on  the  authority  of  the  Bible,  with- 
out note  or  comment,  and  for  the  public  good,  and  the 
good  of  the  Church.    I  do  not  say  that  the  Bible  sanc- 
tioned persecution,  but  I  deny  that  the  absence  of  notes  is 
an  adequate  preventive     1  refer  to  history.    And  al- 
most to  this  day,  though  the  Bible  has  been  translated 
three  hundred  years,  even  in  liberal  governments,  the 
iron  heel  of  persecution  has  been  placed  on  the  dearest 
rights  of  Catholics.    The  gentleman  to  whom  I  allude 
said,  no  doubt,  what  he  knew  would  be  popular  out  of 
doors,  for  he  seems,  with  others,  to  imagine  that  the  world 
began  at  the  period  of  the  Reformation.  He  seems  to  think 
that  every  thing  great  originated  at  that  period.   But  does 
he  not  know  that  eight  hundred  editions  of  the  Bible  had 
been  printed  before  the  Reformation  1    And  does  he  not 
know  that  two  hundred  editions  had  been  circulated  in  the 
common  tongue,  in  the  common  language  of  the  country  ? 
And  has  he  yet  to  learn  tha  the  first  prohibition  to 
read  the  Bible,  came  not  from  a  Catholic,  but  from 
a  Protestant — from  Protestant  Henry  VIII.,  of  "  glori- 
ous memory  1"    He  was  the  first  to  issue  a  prohibition, 
and  it  was  not  till  Catholics  saw  the  evil — not  of  the  Bi- 
ble, but  the  bad  uses  men  were  making  of  the  Bible,  that 
they  placed  its  perusal  under  certain  restrictions,  and 
cautioned  their  people  against  hastily  judging  of  it  for 
themselves.    All  had  been  united  and  harmonious,  but 
by  the  use,  or  abuse,  which  men  made  of  the  Bible,  all 
became  doubt  and  speculation,  and  the  positive  revelation 
of  Christ  was  shaken  or  destroyed.    They  saw  this  Bi- 
ble, and  what  then  ?    But,  while  these  school  gentle- 
men contend  that  it  is  a  shield  against  Infidelity,  and  that 
all  sects  here  agree,  how  is  it  out  of  the  schools?  Why, 
no  sects  agree  upon  it.    How  is  it  that  the  Bible,  -which 
is  given  by  the  inspiration  of  God,  the  God  of  truth,  is 
made  use  of  in  this  city  even,  to  prove  a  Trinity  and  to 
disprove  a  Trinity?    How  is  it  that  Trinitarians  quote  it 
to  prove  their  doctrines,  and  Unitarians  quote  it  to  estab- 
lish the  opposite  doctrines?    How  is  it  that  whilst  one 
says  from  the  Bible,  that  God  the  Father  is  God  alone, 
and  that  Christ  is  not  equal  to  him,  for  he  says,  "  The 
Father  is  greater  than  /,"  another  argues  from  the  same 
Bible  that  the  Father  and  Son  are  equal,  because  Christ  says 
"T/ie  Father  and  I  are  oneV    And  another  comes  with 
the  Bible  in  his  hand,  and  says,  I  believe,  and  I  can  prove 
it  from  this  Bible  that  Christ  alone  is  the  Almighty  God, 
and  the  Father  and  the  Spirit  are  only  attributes  of  the 
same  person  !    Why,  this  Bible  -which  they  say  is  the 
foundation  of  all  truth,  and  they  say  well,  when  it  is  tru- 
ly understood,  a  grace  which  God  can  vouchsafe,  and, 
no  doubt,  he  does  to  many,  this  Bible  is  harmonious  in 
its  every  doctrine.    But  that  is  not  the  point — the  point 
is  the  uses  we  see  men  make  of  it,  and  this  is  the  sum 
of  our  reason  that  we  wish  our  children  not  to  be  taught 
in  the  manner  in  which  Protestant  children  are  taught 
in  reference  to  the  Bible. 
And  then,  again,  if  you  teach  that  there  is  a  hell,  accord- 
ing to  the  Bible,  others  will  contend  that  the  Scriptures 
teach  no  such  doctrine,  and  so  I  might  pass  on  to  other 
points  to  show  you  whilst  they  thus  contend  for  the  Bible 
as  the  guide  to  truth,  there  is  this  disagreement  among 


4« 


them,  at  least  in  this  country,  where  human  right-?  and 
liberties  are  understood,  as  allowing  every  man  to  judge 
for  himself.    Is  there  not  then  danger — is  there  no  ground 
to  apprehend  that  when  our  children  read  this  Bible  and 
find  that  all  these  different  sects  father  all  their  contra- 
dictions on  the  Bible- as  their  authority,  they  will  derive 
their  first  notions  of  Infidelity  from  these  circumstances  ? 
But  there  is  another  ground  on  which  it  is  manifest  we 
cannot  allow  our  children  to  be  taught  by  them.  Whilst 
we  grant  them  the  right  to  take,  if  they  please,  the  Pro- 
testant  Bible  as  the  rule  of  their  faith,  and  the  individual 
right  to  judge  of  the  Bible — and  this  great  principle  they 
proclaim  as  the  peculiar,  and  distinctive,  and  most  glori- 
ous trait  in  their  religious  character  and  history — and  let 
them  boast  of  it,  there  is  no  difficulty  on  the  subject — 
they  interpret  the  Bible  by  the  standard  of  reason,  and 
therefore,  as  there  is  no  given  standard  of  reason — as 
one  has  more  and  another  less,  they  scarcely  e\  er  arrive 
at  the  same  result,  while  the  Bible,  the  eternal  Word  of 
God,  remains  the  same.    But  this  is  not  a  Catholic  prin- 
ciple.   Catholics  do  not  believe  that  God  has  vouchsafed 
the  promise  of  the  Holy  Spirit  to  every  individual,  but 
that  He  has  given  flis  Spirit  to  teach  the  Church  collec- 
tively, and  to  guide  the  Church,  and  therefore  we  do  not 
receive  as  the  Bible  except  what  the  Church  guarantees, 
and  wanting  this  guarantee,  the  Methodist  gentleman  failed 
to  establish  the  book  which  he  produced  with  its  notes, as 
a  Catholic  Bible.  We  do  not  take  the  Bible  on  the  author- 
ity of  a  "  King's  Printer,"  who  is  a  speculating  publisher, 
who  publishes  it  but  as  a  speculation.    And  why  ?  Be- 
cause by  the  change  of  a  single  comma,  that  which  is 
positive  may  be  made  negative,  and  rice  vit'sd,  and  then 
is  it  the  Bible  of  the  inspired  writers  !    It  is  not.  They 
proclaim,  then,  that  theirs  is  a  Christianity  of  reason;  of 
this  they  boast,  and  let  them  glory.    Ours  is  a  Christian- 
ity of  faith;  ours  descends  by  the  teaching  of  the  Church  ; 
we  are  never  authorized  to  introduce  new  doctrines,  be- 
cause we  contend  that  no  new  doctrine  is  true,  from  the 
time  of  the  Apostles,  unless  it  has  come  from  the  mind 
of  God  by  a  special  revelation,  and  to  us  that  is  not  man- 
ifest among  the  Reformers.     We  are  satisfied  to  trust  our 
eternal  interests,  for  weal  or  woe,  on  the  security  of  that 
Catholic  Church,  and  the  veracity  of  the  divine  promises. 
You  perceive,  therefore,  that  Protestants  may  agree  in 
the  system  where  this  Bible  is  thus  introduced  ;  but  it  is 
not  in  accordance  with  the  principles  of  Catholics  that 
each  one  shall  derive  therefrom  his  own  notions  of  Chris- 
tianity.  It  is  not  the  principle  of  Catholics,  because  they 
believe  in  the  incompetence  of  individual  reason,  in  mat- 
ters of  such  importance.    It  is  from  this  self-sufficiency 
and  imputed  capacity  that  men  derive  such  notions  of 
self-confidence,  which,  owing  to  a  want  of  power  to  con- 
troul  in  some  domestic  circles,  if  taught  to  our  children, 
lead  to  disobedience  and  disregard  of  the  parental  au- 
thority. 

I  have  been  obliged  to  enter  into  this,  which  is  ra- 
ther theological  than  otherwise,  to  put  you  in  possession 
of  the  true  ground.  We  do  not  take  the  Protestant  Bible, 
but  we  do  not  wish  others  not  to  take  it  if  they  desire  it- 
If  conscience  be  stifled,  you  do  not  make  us  better  men 
or  better  citizens,  and  therefore  I  say,  gentlemen,  respect 
conscience,  even  though  you  think  it  in  error,  provided 
it  does  not  conflict  with  the  public  rights.  I  have 
sufficiently  disoposed  of  the  addresses  of  the  two  legal  ge- 
ntlemen who  have  spoken.  I  will  now  call  the  attention 


of  thi-r  honorable  body  to  the  remarks  of  the  Rev  gentle- 

mm  who  spoke  in  relation  to  the  Rhemish  Testament.  1 
did  use,  sir,  yesterday,  an  expression  which  1  used  with 
reluctance,  but  when  we  were  charged  before  this  honor- 
able bod/ — when  the  Rev.  gentleman  who  represents  a 
numerous  denomination,  charged  us  with  teaching  the 
lawfulness  of  murdering  heretics,  that  expression  came 
on  me  as  a  thunderbolt ;  because  I  thought  that  truth 
should  proceed  from  the  lips  of  age  and  a  man  of  character. 
And,  sir,  I  knew  that  po-ition  was  not  true,  and  that  it 
was  an  easy  matter  to  assert  a  thing,  but  not  so  easy  to 
disprove  it.  I  might  take  advantage  of  circumstances  to 
charge  a  man  with  things  that  it  would  take  weeks  to 
disprove,  and  therefore  I  thought  it  necessary  to  nail  that 
slanderous  statement  to  the  counter  before  it  could  have 
its  designed  influence  here  or  elsewhere.  That  gentle- 
man began  with  great  humility,  and  with  professions  of 
being  devoid  of  prejudice,  and  then  he  said  that  those 
meetings  to  which  he  referred,  and  which  he  called  "  pub- 
lic gatherings,"  had  caused  him  to  feel  greatly  alarmed 
about  this  question,  as  if  the  stability  of  your  Republic 
was  endangered,  provided  Catholic  children  received  the 
benefits  of  a  common  school  education  !  He  said  1  had 
applied  certain  remarks  to  the  creed  of  the  Society  of 
Friends,  and,  though  perhaps  it  was  somewhat  out  of 
order,  but  wishing  to  set  the  gentleman  right,  I  denied 
that  I  had  done  so.  But  since  then  the  reporter  has  handed 
me  the  notes  taken  of  what  I  did  say,  and  from  them  also 
it  appears  that  I  said  no  such  thing.  He  referred  to  the 
practice  of  teaching  religion  in  the  schools;  but  of  that  I 
have  di- posed  already. 

He  then,  while  going  through  the  introductory  part 
of  the  remonstrance  of  the  .Methodist  Episcopal  church, 
threw  out  constantly  calumnious  charges  against  the 
Catholic  church  and  the  Catholic  religion  ;  he  did  not 
throw  them  out  as  assertions  but  by  inuendo,  as  "if  it 
be  true,"  and  "  I  should  like  to  know,"  as  if  I  am  here 
for  the  purpose  of  supplying  every  thing  he  would  "  like 
to  know."     And  how  can  1  meet  him  when  insinuation 
is  the  form  in  which  his  charges  are  thrown  out  '.  Why, 
their  very  feebleness  takes  from  an  opponent  the  power 
of  refutation.     But  when  he  comes  to  something  tangi- 
ble, then  I  can  meet  him.    Having  gone  through  a  se- 
ries of  insinuations,  he  misrepresents  our  intentions :  not- 
withstanding we  disclaim  such  an   intention,  he  in- 
dulges in  the  gratuitous  supposition  that  if  your  honor- 
able body  should  grant  our  petition,  we  shall  secret- 
ly teach  the  Catholic  religion.    But  if  wo  do,  is  not  the 
law  as  potent  against  us  as  against  the  Public  Schools  ? 
If  they  teach  religion,  as  they  acknowledge,  why  may 
not  we  ?    WTe  are  not  grasping  to  obtain  power  over 
others,  but  we  desire  in  sincerity  to  benefit  a  portion  of 
our  own  neglected  children.    I  shall  pass  over,  therefore, 
agreat  dealof  what  the  gentleman  "  would  like  to  know," 
for  I  do  not  know  if  it  is  of  importance  t»  the  subject. 
He  said,  this  Rhemish  Testament  was  published  by  au- 
thority ;  but  he  began  by  a  retreat  and    cot    by  a 
direct  charge,  "  he  did  not  profess  to  say  that  our 
church  approved  of  it  ;  but  it  was  printed  and  published 
and  it  was  not    on  the   Index,"  as  if   every  bad  book 
in  the  world,  must  be  in  the  Index ;  and  with  this  evi- 
dence of  fact,  he  comes  here  and  spreads  before  the 
American  people  the  slander  and  calumny  that  the  Ca- 
tholics by  their  notes  and  comments,  teach  the  lawfulness 
of  murdering  heretics.    Now,  Sir,  I  will  take  up  that 


47 


book  and  the  parts  he  read  with  the  notes,  giving  an  ex- 
planation, as  though  they  came  from  Catholics.  To  you 
know  the  history  of, that  book,  Sir  .  If  not,  I  can  tell 
you.  When  Uueen  Elizabeth  scourged  the  Catholics 
from  their  altars  and  drove  them  into  exile,  these  men 
held  a  common  notion,  which  was  natural  and  .iust,  that 
England  was  their  country  and  that  they  were  suffering 
unmerited  persecution.  The  new  religion,  not  satisfied 
with  toleration  for  itself,  grasped  the  substance  of 
things,  grasped  the  power  of  the  State,  seized  all  their 
temples  ;  and  not  even  satisfied  with  this,  scourged  the 
Catholics  from  their  home  and  country  ;  and  they  did 
write  these  notes,  and  why!  They  wrote  them  in  exile, 
smarting  under  the  lash  and  the  torture,  and  in  connec- 
tion too  with  a  plan  for  the  invasion  of  England,  by 
Philip  II.  of  Spain.  Their  object  was  to  disseminate  a- 
mongst  Catholics  of  England  dissatection  to  Queen;  Eliz- 
abeth and  thus,  dispose  them  to  join  the  true  Catholic  and 
oppose  theheretics,  because  the  heretics  were  their  ene- 
mies, were  the  enemies  of  their  rights,  and  had  crushed 
them.  But  when  that  book  appeared  in  England.,  wasthere 
a  single  approval  given  it,  a  single  Catholic  that  received 
it  ?  Not  one.  When  it  was  published  for  political  ends — 
to  aid  the  invasion  of  Philip — did  the  English  Catholics 
receive  it  ?  Never.  But  the  gentleman  said  it  was  pub- 
lished by  the  Bishops  of  Ireland,  and  with  their  approba- 
tion and  with  the  approbation  of  a  great  number  of  the 
Catholic  clergy  ;  and  this  after  his  own  admission  that, 
insomuch  as  it  had  not  been  approved  by  the  Holy  See, 
the  Bishop  of  Rome,  it  was  not  of  authority  in  the  Ca- 
tholic church.  ?>ow  I  shall  take  up  both  parts,  and  first 
I  should  like  to  know  where  is  his  authorit}-,  that  it  was 
published  by  the  Bishops  of  Ireland  I  I  pause  for  a  re- 
.  ply,  and  I  shall  not  consider  it  an  interruption. 

Dr.  Bond.    Do  you  wish  an  answer? 

Bishop  Hughes.    I  do,  Sir;  I  desire  your  authority. 

Dr.  Bond.  Why  if  we  a  e  to  believe  history,  it  is 
true  ;  it  is  stated  in  the  British  Critic. 

Bishop  Hughes.    Oh!  I  am  satisfied. 

Dr.  Bond.  It  could  not  have  been  reviewed  if  it  did 
not  exist. 

Bishop  Hughes.  Oh  !  It  is  here,  and  that  proves  its 
existence  without  the  British  Critic.  It  was  gone  out 
of  print  again,  and  not  a  Catholic  now  heard  of  it,  but 
your  liberal  Protestant  clergymen  of  New  York,  repub- 
lished it.  What  for  '(  To  bring  infamy  on  the  Catholic 
name  ;  and  it  was  from  this  Protestant  edition,  and 
not  from  Ireland  that  the  Methodist  gentleman  received 
it.  1  am  now  not  surprised  at  his  saying  so  o.ten  that 
he  would  "  like  to  know,"  for  a  little  more  knowledge 
would  be  of  great  advantage  to  him.    I  need  not  read  it. 

Dr.  Bond.    Oh,  you  had  better. 

Bishop  Hughes.  Well,  Sir,  any  thing  to  accomodate 
you. 

"  It  is  a  remarkable  fact,  that  notwithstanding  the 
Vulgate  New  Testament,  as  it  was  translated  and  ex- 
pounded by  the  members  of  the  Jesuit  College  at 
Rheims  in  15S2,  has  been  republished  in  a  great  number 
of  editions,  and  their  original  annotations,  either  more  or 
less  extensively,  have  been  added  to  the  text  ;  yet  as 
soon  as  it  is  appealed  to  as  an  authority,  the  Roman 
Priests  admit  both  the  value  of  the  book,  and  the  obli- 
gation of  the  Papists  to  believe  its  contents.  We  have 
a  very  striking  modern  instance  to  prove  this  deceit- 
fulness." 

Now  it  must  be  recollected  that  this  is  a  Protestant 


publication  ;  the  Catholics  did  not  circulate  it,  but  the 
Protestant  Ministers  did,  to  mislead  their  flocks  and  to 
bring  infamy  on  their  Catholic  fellow  citizens. 

"  The  Douay  Bible  is  usually  so  called,  because  al- 
though the  New  Testament  was  first  translated  and  pub- 
lished at  Rheims,  yet  the  Old  Testament  was  printed 
some  years  after  at  Douay  ;  the  English  Jesuits  having 
removed  their  Monastery  from  Rheims  to  Douay,  befo*e 
their  version  of  the  Old  Testament  was  completed  In 
the  year  lb]6,an  edition,  including  both  the  Douay  Old, 
and  the  Rhemish  New  Testament,  was  issued  at  Dublin, 
containing  a  large  number  of  comments,  replete  with  im- 
piety, irrejigion,  and  the  most  fiery  persecution.  That 
edition  was  published  under  the  direction  of  all  the  Dig- 
nitaries of  the  Roman  Hierarchy  in  Ireland  ;  and  about 
thiee  hundred  others  of  the  most  influential  subordinate 
Priests." 

Now  I  called  for  the  gentleman's  evidence  for  this, 
and  the  gentleman  was  found  v.imu  habenl — he  has  it 
not  to  give.  The  prints  said  so,  and  he  believed  the 
prints  !  INow,  Sir,  this  is  a  grave  charge  and  1  am  dis- 
posed to  treat  it  gravely  ;  but  1  should  not  feel  w  orthy 
of  the  name  of  a  man,  I  should  feel  myself  unworthy  of 
being  a  member  of  the  American  lamily,  if  I  had  not 
risen  and  repelled  such  a  charge  as  it  deserved. 
Dr  Bond.  You  hove  not  read  all  I  read. 
Bishop  Hughes.  1  will  read  all  the  gentleman  mny 
wish  if  he  will  not  keep  me  here,  reading  all  night 

"  The  notes  which  urged  the  hatred  and  murder  of 
Protestants,  attracted    the  aitention  of   the  British 
churches,  and  to  use  the  words  of  T.  Hartwell  Home, 
that  edition  of  the  Rhemish  Testament  printed  at  Dublin 
in   1816,  corrected  and  revised  and  approved  by  Dr. 
Troy,  Roman  Catholic  Archbishop  of  Dublin,  was  re- 
viewed by  the  British  Critic,  vol.  S.  p.  296— aOrt  ;  New 
Series  ;,  and  its  dangerous  tenets  both  civil  and  reli- 
gious, were  exposed.'' 
That  is  the  testimony. 
Dr.  Bond.    There  is  another  paragraph. 
Bishop  Hughes.    Well,  I  will  read  the  other. 
"  This  publication,  with  many  others  of  a  similar  cha- 
racter, produced  so  great  an  excitement  in  Britain,  that 
finally  several  of  the  most  prominent  of  the  Irish  Roman 
Prelates  were  called  before  the  English  Parliament  to 
prove  their  own  work.     Then,  and  upon  oath,  with  all 
official  solemnity,  they  peremptorily  disclaimed  the  vol- 
umes published  by  their  own  instigation,  and  under  their 
own  supervision  and  auspices,  as  books  of  no  authority  ; 
because  they  had  not  been  ratified  by  the  Pope,  and 
received  by  the  whole  Papal  church." 

Now,  what  authority  have  we  for  this  charge  of  perjiuy 
against  the  Irish  Bishops,  better  than  the  gentleman's 
own  ?  It  is  so  stated  here  ;  what  authority  is  there  for 
that  ? 

Dr.  Bond.  It  was  so  stated  before  the  British  Par- 
liament. 

Bishop  Hughes.  I  should  regret,  on  account  of  your 
age,  if  I  used  any  expression  that  might  be  deemed 
harsh. 

Dr.  Bond.  Take  the  liberty  to  say  what  yon  please. 
Bishop  Hughes.  With  regard  to  these  not  a,  1  have  to 
observe,  that  they  were  written  in  an  age,  (15S2)  when  the 
rights  of  conscience  were  but  little  understood.  Protes- 
tants in  that  age  every  where  persecuted,  not  only  Catho- 
lics, but  each  other.  And  long  after,  the  Puritans  of 
New  England  with  the  Bible,  and  without  notes,  perse- 


48 


cuted  with  torture,  and  even  to  hanging  Iheir  fellow  Pro- 
testants, ft  was  not  wonderful,  therefore,  if  in  such  an 
«ge  Catholics  were  tumid  to  entertain  t lie  opinion*  set 
forth  in  the  notes.  Hut  bad  as  they  are,  it  is  remarkable 
that  they  do  not  sustain  the  calumnious  charge  of  the  Rev. 
Gentleman,  that  they  "  toach  the  lawfulness  of  murdering 
heretics." 

And  now,  Sir,  let  me  call  your  attention  to  the  book 
itself. 

In  the  13th  chapter  of  St.  Matthew,  there  is  this  text,  at 
the  29th  ver.se  It  occurs  in  the  Parable  of  the  cockle 
(in  the  Protestant  version  tares)  and  the  wheat,  in  answer 
to  Christ's  Disciples  who  asked  :  "  Wilt  thou  that  toe 
gather  ft  up  I1'  And  hesaid.no:  Lest  perhaps  gather- 
ing up  the  cockles,  you  may  root  up  the  wheal  also  together 
with  it.    The  annotation  on  this  is  : 

''Ver.  29.  Lest  you  pluck  up  also.  The  good  mutt  tolerate  tlie  evil 
when  it  is  so  strong  that  it  cannot  be  redressed  without  danger  and 
disturbance  of  the  whole  Church,  and  commit  the  matter  to  God's 
judgment  in  the  latter  day.  Otherwise,  where  ill  men,  be  they  Hnc- 
tics  or  other  malefactors,  may  be  punished  or  suppressed  without  dis- 
turbance and  hazard  of  the  good,  they  may,  and  ought,  by  public  au- 
thority, either  spirit  u. d  or  temporal,  to  be  chastised  or  executed.1' 

They  may  and  ought  "  by  public  authority  /"  Why  the 
proposition  of  the  gentleman  was,  that  Catholics  were 
taught  lo  kill  their  Protestant  neighbors.  Now  there  is 
not  through  lit  toe  whole  volume  a  proposition  so  absurd 
as  the  i  lea  conveyed  by  him.  Bud  as  the  notes  are  they 
require  falsification  to  bear  him  out. 

Again,  Lul.c,  9  ch.  v.  54.  55  :  And  when  his  Disciples 
James  and  John  had  seen  it,  they  said,  Lord  will  thou  we 
say  that  're  come  down  from  heaven  and  consume  them? 
And  turning  he  rebuked  them,  saying,  You  know  not  of 
what  spirit  you  are.     Annotation  : 

"  Vcr.  55.  He  rebuked,  them.  Not  justice,  nor  all  rigorous  punish- 
ment of  sinners  is  here  forbidden,  nor  Elias'  fact  reprehended,  nor  the 
Church  or  Christian  Princes  blamed  for  putting  Heretics  to  death.— 
But  noneofihesc  should  be  done  for  desire  of  our  particular  revenge, 
or  without  discretion  and  regard  of  their  amendment,  and  example  to 
others.  Therefore  Peter  used  his  power  upon  Ananias  and  Saphira 
when  he  struck  them  both  clown  to  death  for  defrauding  the  Church. :' 

I  am  afraid  I  shall  fatigue  this  honorable  body  by  going 
over  these  notes,  nor  is  it  necessary  that  I  should  follow 
the  gentleman  in  all  his  discursive  wanderings.  There 
is  nothing  in  this  to  authorize  the  murdering  of  heretics. 

But,  again,  Luke  14  ch.  23  v.  And  the. Lord  said  to 
the  servant,  Go  forth  unlo  the  ways  and  hedges  ;  and  com- 
pel ih?m  to  enter,  that  my  house  may  be  filled.   Annotation  : 

"  Compel  them.  The  vehement  persuasion  that  God  uscth,  both  exter- 
nally, by  force  of  his  word  and  miracles,  and  internally  by  his  grace,  to 
bring  us  unto  him  is  cahed  compelling:  not  that  he  fore  th  any  to  come 
to  him  against  their  w  ills,  but  that  he  can  alter  and  mollify  a  hard  heart, 
an  I  make  him  willing,  that  before  would  no'.  Augustine,  also,  refer- 
red) this  compelling  to  the  penal  aws,  which  Catholic  Princes  do  justly 
use  against  Heretics  and  Schismatics,  proving  that  they  who  are  by 
their  former  profession  in  Baptism  subject  to  the  Catholic  Church,  and 
are  departed  from  the  same  after  sects,  may,  and  ought  to  be  compell- 
ed into  the  unity  and  society  of  the  Universal  Church  again  ;  and 
therefore,  in  this  sense,  by  the  two  former  parts  of  the  parable,  the 
J.iws  first,  and  secondly  the  Gentiles,  that  never  believed  before  in 
Christ  were  invited  by  fair,  sweet  means  only  ;  but  by  the  third,  such 
are  invited  as  the  Church  of  God  hath  power  over,  because  they 
promised  in  B  tptism,  and  t  herefore  are  to  be  revoked  not  only  by  gentle 
means,  but  by  just  punishment  also." 

Sir,  the  punishment  of  spiritual  offences  and  the  allu- 
sions here  made  to  it,  have  their  roots  too  deep,  and  too 
wide  spreading  to  he  entered  into  and  discussed  in  the 
time  that  I  could  occupy  this  evening.  It  would  be  im- 
possible to  go  over  the  historical  grounds  which  suggest 
nemselves  iu  connection  with  the  subject,  to  shew  the  re- 


sults to  the  state  of  society,  which  grew  unavoidably  out  of 

the  breaking  up  of  the  Roman  Empire,  and  th»  incursion 
of  new  and  uncivilized  n  itions  and  tribes.  Society  had 
been  dissolved,  with  all  the  order  and  laws  of  the  ancient 
civilization.  It  was  the  slow  work  of  the  church  to  re-or- 
ganise the  new  and  crude  mate-  ials — to  gather  and  arrange 
the  fragments — to  re-mode|  nociety  nnd  social  institutions 
as  best  she  might.  There  was  no  other  power  that  could 
digest  the  crude  mass;  the  fierce  infusions  of  other 
tongues  and  tribes  ar-d  nations  that  had,  during  the  chaos, 
become  mixed  up  with  the  remains  of  ancient  Roman  ci- 
vilisation. She  had  to  begin  by  religion,  their  con- 
version to  Christianity  being  the  fiist  step;  and  the 
Catholic  church  being  the  only  one  in  existence.  Hence 
the  laws  of  religion  are  the  first  with  which  fhose  new 
populations  became  acquainted,  and  the  only  ones  that 
could  restrain  them.  Hence  too,  what  is  called  Canon  Law 
went  before,  and  Civil  Law  gradually  followed,  often  times 
mixed  with,  and  deriving  its  force  from  the  older  form 
of  legislation.  The  actual  state  of  society  made  it 
unavoidable  that  this  should  be  the  order  of  things.  Civil 
governments  oftentimes  engrafted  whole  branches  of  the 
ecclesiastical  law  in  their  secular  codes  ;  and  ecclesiasti- 
cal judges  were  often  the  interpreters  and  administrators 
of  both 

Canonical  law  and  civil  law  thus  blended,  became  the 
codes  of  civil  government,  from  the  necessity  of  the  case, 
and  it  is  to  this  state  of  things  that  the  authors  of  the  notes 
make  allusion  in  their  text.  But,  as  I  have  remarked,  the 
subject  is  too  deep  to  be  properly  discussed  on  this  occa- 
sion, when  time  is  so  brief,  and  so  many  speakers  to  bo 
replied  to. 

We  now  come  to  Acts,  25  v.  II. 

"  / appeal  to  Cesar.  If  Paul,  both  to  save  himself  from  whipping 
and  from  death,  sought  by  the  Jews,  doubled  not  to  cry  for  honor  <f 
the  Roman  laws,  and  to  npp  al  to  Cesar,  the  Prince  of  the  Romans, 
not  yet  christened,  how  n  uch  more  may  w  e  call  fo  aid  of  Christian 
Princes  and  their  law s,  for  the  punishment  of  Heretics,  and  fot  the 
Church's  defence  against  them.    .Ivgust.    Epist.  50." 

Here  you  see  the  workirg  of  human  interest ;  and  it  is 
not  the  fust  time,  among  Protestants  and  Catholics,  nor 
will  it  be  the  last,  that  men  have  made  the  word  cf  God 
and  sacred  things,  a  stepping-stone,  to  promote  temporal 
interests.  They  say  there,  "heretics  have  banished  us  and 
is  it  not  naturally  the  interest  of  Catholics  to  join  a  Catho- 
lic Prince  to  put  down  our  stern  persecutors."  As  if  they 
had  said  to  their  fellow  Catholics  of  England,  a  Catholic 
Prince  will  soon  make  a  descent  on  our  country,  it  will  be 
your  duty  as  it  is  your  interest,  to  join  in  putting  down  the 
heretic  Elizabeth,  who  has  driven  us  from  our  country. 

I  go  now  to  Hebrews,  ch.  10.  v.  29.  How  much  more 
think  you,  doth  he  deserve  worse  punishments  which  hath 
trodden  the  So  i  of  God  under  Joot,  and  esteemed  the  blood 
of  the  Testament  polluted  wherein  he  is  sanctified,  and  hath 
done  conlrarily  to  the  spirit  of  grace  ?    Annotation  : 

'•  The  blood  of  the  Testament.  Whosoever  maketh  no  more  account 
of  the  blood  of  Christ's  sacrifice,  either  as  shed  upon  the  cross,  or  as 
in  the  chalice  of  the  altar,  for  our  Saviour  callelh  that,  also,  t  e  blood 
of  the  New  Testament,  than  he  doth  cf  the  blood  of  ea'ves  and  coats, 
or  of  other  common  drinks,  is  worthy  death,  and  God  will  in  the  next 
life,  if  it  be  not  punished  here,  revenge  it  with  grievous  punishment." 

"  God  will  in  the  next  life  punish  !"  Why,  after  all, 
bad  as  these  notes  are,  objectionable  and  scorned  and  re. 
pudiated  as  they  were  by  the  Catholics  of  England ;  bad 
as  they  are,  they  do  not  sustain  the  gentleman  whose  as- 
sertion has  gone  as  far  beyond  the  truth,  as  it  is  infinitely 


49 


beyond  charity.  I  do  not  find  the  notes  from  the  Apoca- 
lypse, which  would  have  gone  to  shew  in  like  manner  that, 
bad  as  they  were,  they  do  uot  support  the  accusations 
made. 

Dr.  Bond.    There  are  others  as  well. 

Bishop  Hughes.    Well,  I  will  give  you  the  rest. 

The  President.  Perhaps  it  is  not  necessary.  But  if 
they  are,  it  is  not  necessary  to  interrupt  the  gentleman. 

Bishop  Hughes.  Such  then  sir,  are  the  notes  put  by  the 
Catholic  translators  of  the  New  Testament  at  Iiheims  in 
1532 — smarting  as  they  were  under  the  lash  of  Eliza- 
beth's persecution,  and  looking  forward  with  hope  to  the 
result  of  the  invasion  by  Philip  II.  They  were  repudiated 
indignantly  by  the  Catholics  of  England  and  Ireland  from 
the  first;  and  were  out  of  print,  until  some  Protestant 
ministers  of  New  York  had  them  published  in  order  to 
mislead  the  people  and  to  excite  odium  against  the  Catho- 
lic name. 

But  here,  Sir,  is  the  acknowledged  Testament  of  all 
Catholics  who  speak  the  English  language  ;  this  is  known 
and  may  be  read  by  any  one  ,  it  is  the  14lh  edition  in  this 
country,  it  corresponds  with  those  used  in  England  and 
Ireland  ;  and  if  any  such  notes  can  be  found  in  it,  then 
believe  Catholics  to  be  what  they  have  been  falsely  repre- 
sented to  be. 

But  the  Rev.  gentleman  disclaims  originating  the 
slander.  He  took,  it  we  are  told,  from  the  'British  Critic,' 
as  if  that  which  is  false  must  become  true,  from  the  mo- 
ment it  is  put  in  type  and  piinted.  But,  Sir,  he  should 
have  known  that  the  article  in  the  British  Critic  was  re- 
futed at  the  time,  and  has  been  since  refuted  in  the  Dublin 
Review.  And  it  so  happens  that  Doctor  Troy,  then  Ca- 
tholic Archbishop  of  Dublin,  and  who  is  here  represented 
as  having  approved  these  notes,  had  to  sustain  a  law-suit 
with  tht  Dublin  publisher,  who  was  also  a  Protestant — 
not  for  approving  the  work,  but  for  denouncing  it,  which 
destroyed  the  publisher's  speculation,  and  involved  a  suit 
against  the  Archbishop  for  damages ! !  This  is  attested 
by  Dr.  Troy's  letter,  now  before  me,  and  by  the  legal 
proceedings,  and  in  a  speech  made  by  Daniel  O'Connell 
to  the  Catholic  Board  at  the  time,  (1817,)  we  find 
the  following  : — 

"  From  the  Dublin  Evening  Post  of  the  6t/i  of  December,  1817. 
CATHOLIC  BOARD  — THE  RHEIMISH  BIBLE. 
A  remarkably  full  meeting  of  the  Catholic  Board  took  place  on 
Thursday  last,  pursuant  to  adjournment— Owen  O'Conner,  Esq.,  in 
the  Chair. 

After  some  preliminary  business,  Mr.  O'Connell  rose  to  make 
his  promised  motion,  for  the  appointment  of  a  Committee  to  prepare 
a.  denunciation  of  the  intolerant  doctrines  contained  in  the  Rheimish 
Notes. 

Mr.  O'Connell  sai.i,  that  on  the  last  day  of  meeting  he  gave  notice 
that  he  would  move  for  ft  committee,  to  draw  up  a  disavowal  of  the 
verydangerous  and  uncharitable  doctrines  conlain?d  in  certain  notes  to 
the  Rheimish  Testament.  He  now  rose  to  submit  that  motion  to  the 
consideration  cf  the  Board.  The  lale  edition  of  the  Rheimish  Testa- 
ment in  this  country  gave  rise  to  much  observation  ; — that  work  was 
denounced  by  Dr.  Troy ;  an  action  is  no w  depending  between  him  and 
a  respectable  bookseller  in  this  city ;  and  it  would  b^  the  duty  of  the 
Board  not  to  interfere,  in  tue  remotest  degree,  with  the  subject  of  that 
action,  but,  on  the  other  hand,  the  Board  could  not  let  .he  present  op- 
portunity pass  by  of  recording  their  sentiments  of  disapprobation  and 
even  of  abhorrence  of  the  bigoted  and  intolerant  doctrines  promulgated 
in  that  work.  Their  feelings  of  what  was  wise,  consistent,  and  lib- 
eral, would  suggest  such  a  proceeding,  even  though  the  indecent  calum- 
nies of  their  enemies  had  not  rendered  it  indispensibl  \  A  work  call- 
ed The  British  Critic,  h  sd,  no  doubt,  i  een  read  by  ioms  gentlemen 
who  heard  him.  The  circulation  of  the  last  number  has  been  very 
extorsive,  and  exceeded,  almost  beyond  calculation,  the  circulation  of 
any  former  numbsr,  in  consequence  of  an  article  which  appeared  in  it 
on  th*  late  edition  of  the  Rheimish  Testament.    He  (Mr.  C*Connell) 


said  he  read  that  article  ;  it  is  extremely  unfair  and  uncandid ;  it  gives 
with  audacious  falsehood,  pas- ages,  as  if  from  the  notes  rf  the  Rheim- 
isn  Testament,  which  cannot  be  found  in  that  work  ;  and,  with  mean 
cunning,  it  seeks  to  avoid  detection  by  quoting,  without  giving  either 
text  or  page.  Throughout,  it  is  written  in  the  true  spirit  of  the  Inquisi- 
tion, it  is  violent,  vindictive,  and  uncharitable.  He  was  sorry  to  under- 
stand that  it  was  wr  tten  by  ministers  of  the  Established  Church ;  but 
he  trusted,  that  when  the  charge  of  intemperance  should  be  again 
brought  forward  against  the  Cathol.cs,  their  accusers  would  cast  their 
eyes  on  this  coarse  ann  illiberal  attack — here  they  may  find  a  specimen 
of  real  intemperance.  But  the  very  acceptable  work  of  imputing  prin- 
ciples to  the  Irish  people  which  they  never  held,  and  which  they  abhor, 
was  not  confined  to  The  British  Critic.  The  Courier,  a  newspaper 
whose  circulation  is  immense,  lent  its  hand,  and  the  provincial  news- 
papers throughout  England — those  papers  which  arc  forever  silent 
when  any  thing  might  be  said  favorable  to  Ireland,  but  are  ever  active 
to  disseminate  whatever  may  tend  to  her  disgrace  or  dishonor.  They 
have  not  hesitated  to  impute  to  the  Catholics  of  this  country  the  doc- 
trines contained  in  those  offensive  notes — and  it  was  iheir  duty  to  dis- 
claim them.  Nothing  was  more  remote  from  the  true  sentiments  of  the 
Irish  people.  These  notes  were  of  English  growth ;  they  were  written 
in  agitated  times,  when  the  title  of  Elizabeth  was  questioned,  on  the 
grounds  of  legitimacy.  Parly  spirit  was  then  extreme  y  violent ; — 
politics  mixed  with  religion,  and,  of  course,  disgraced  it.  Queen  Mary, 
of  Scotland,  had  active  partisans,  who  thought  it  would  forward  their 
purposes  to  translate  the  Bible,  and  add  to  it  those  ob  oxious  notes. 
But  very  short  y  after  the  establishment  of  the  College  at  Douay,  th  s 
Rheimish  ed  tion  was  condemned  by  all  the  Doctors  of  that  Institution, 
who,  at  the  same  time,  called  for  and  received  the  aid  of  the  Scotch 
and  Irish  Colleges.  The  book  was  thus  suppressed,  and  an  edition  of 
the  Bible,  with  notes,  was  published  at  Douay,  which  has  ever  been 
since  adopted  by  the  Catholic  Church ;  so  that  they  not  only  condemn- 
ed and  suppressed  the  Rheimish  edition,  but  they  published  an  edition, 
with  notes,  to  which  no  objection  has,  or  could  be,  urged.  From  that 
period  there  have  been  but  two  editions  of  the  Rheimish  Testament ; 
the  first  had  very  little  circulation  ;  the  late  one  was  published  by  a 
very  ignorant  printer  in  Cork,  a  man  of  the  name  of  M'Namara,  a 
person  who  was  not  capable  of  distinguishing  between  the  Rheimish 
and  any  other  edition  of  the  Bible.  He  took  up  the  matter  merely 
as  a  speculation  in  trade.  He  meant  to  publish  a  Catholic  Bible, 
and  having  put  his  hand  upon  the  Rheimish  edition,  he  commenced 
to  print  it  in  numbers.  He  subsequently  became  bankrupt,  and  his 
property  in  this  transaction  vested  in  Mr.  Cumming,  a  respectable 
bookseller  in  this  city,  who  is  either  a  Protestant  or  Presbyterian ; 
but  he  carried  on  the  work,  like  M  Namara,  merely  to  make  money 
of  it,  as  a  mercantile  speculation  ;  and  yet,  said  Mr.  O'Connell,  our 
enemies  have  taken  it  up  with  avidity  ;  they  have  asserted  that  the 
sentiments  of  those  notes  are  cherished  by  the  Catholics  in  this 
country.  He  would  not  be  surprised  to  read  of  speeches  in  the  next 
Parliament  on  the  subject.  It  was  a  hundred  to  one  but  that  some 
of  our  briefless  barristers  have  already  commenced  composing  their 
dull  calumnies,  and  that  we  shall  have  speeches  from  them,  for  the 
edification  of  the  Legislature,  and  the  protection  of  the  Church  — 
There  was  not  a  moment  to  be  lost — the  Catholics  should,  with  one 
voice,  disclaim  those  very  odious  doctrines.  He  was  sure  theie  was 
not  a  single  Catholic  in  Ireland  that  did  not  feel  as  he  did,  abhor- 
rence at  the  principles  these  notes  contain.  Illiberalityhas  been  at- 
tributed to  the  Irish  people,  but  they  are  grossly  wronged.  He  had 
often  addressed  the  Catholic  people  of  Ireland.  He  always  found 
them  applaud  every  sentiment  of  liberality,  and  the  doctrine  of  per- 
fect freedom  of  conscience  ;  the  right  of  every  human  being  to  nave 
his  religious  creed,  whatever  that  creed  might  be,  unpolluted  by  the 
impious  interference  of  bigotted  or  oppressive  laws.  Those  sacred 
rights,  and  that  generous  sentiment,  were  never  uttered  at  a  Catholic 
aggregate  meeting,  without  receiving  at  the  instant  the  loud  and  the 
unanimous  applause  of  the  assembly. 

It  might  be  said  that  those  meetings  were  composed  of  mere  rab- 
ble. Well,  be  it  so.  For  one  he  should  concede  that,  for  the  sake 
of  argument.  But  what  followed  ?  Why,  just  this : — that  the  Cath- 
olic rabble,  without  the  advantages  of  education,  or  of  the  influence 
of  polished  society,  were  so  well  acquainted  with  the  genuine  prin- 
ciples of  Christian  charity,  that  they,  the  rabble,  adopted  and  ap- 
plauded sentiments  of  liberality,  and  of  religious  freedom,  which, 
unfortunately,  met  but  little  encouragement  from  the  polished  and 
educated  of  other  sects.'' 

(Then  follows  the  passage  which  we  have  quoted  in  the  preceding 
article.) 

"  Mr.  O'Connell' s  motion  was  put  and  carried,  the  words  being 
amended  thus : —  , 

'  That  a  Committee  be  appointed  to  draw  up  an  address  on  the  oc- 
casion of  the  late  publication  of  the  Rheimish  Testament,  with  n 
view  to  have  the  same  submitted  to  an  aggregate  meeting.'  " 


60 


Such,  Sir,  are  the  history  and  the  authority  of  the  notes 
put  to  the  Kheimish  translation  of  the  New  'Ptestament. 
The  denunciation  of  Dr.  Troy,  spoiled  the  sale  of  the 
work  in  Ireland,  and  the  publisher's  sent  the  remaining 
copies  for  sale  to  this  country  ;  but  even  this  did  not  re. 
muuerate  him,  as  his  loss  was  estimated  at  £500  sterling- 
It  must  have  been  from  one  of  these  exiled  copies,  that 
the  Protestant  edition  published  in  this  city,  now  produced, 
was  taken.  These  being  the  facts  of  the  case,  if  I  were  a 
Protestant,  I  should  feel  ashamed  of  a  clergyman  of  my 
church,  who,  from  either  malice  or  ignorance,  should  lake 
up  such  a  book,  with  the  unchristian  view  of  blackening 
he  character  of  any  denomination  of  my  fellow  citizens. 
But  not  only  this,  Sir,  but  look  at  the  array  of  the  names 
of  Protestant  Ministers  in  this  city  certifying,  contrary 
to  the  fact,  that  this  text  and  these  notes  are  by  the  autho- 
rity of  the  Catholic  church,  and  then  say,  whether  there  is 
no  prejudice  against  the  Catholics  !  I  shall  now  dismiss 
the  subject. 

Sir,  the  Methodist  gentleman,  in  the  whole  of  his  ad- 
dress, in  which  he  made  the  charge  I  have  now  dis- 
posed of,  and  of  which  I  wish  him  joy,  slyly  changed  the 
nature  and  bearing  of  my  language  in  the  remarks  1  made 
last  evening.  For  instance,  respecting  Purgatory,  of 
which  I  observed  if  they  were  not  satisfied  with  our  Pur- 
gatory and  wished  to  go  farther,  they  might  prove  the 
truth  of  the  proverb,  which  says  they  may  "  go  farther 
and  fare  worse."  He  said  I  »•  sent  "  them  farther.  But 
that  corresponds  with  the  rest.  I  did  not  send  them  far- 
ther. I  here  disavow  such  feelings  in  the  name  of  human 
nature  and  of  that  venerable  religion  which  I  profess. 

But  he  has  seen  that  "betting,"  as  he  was  pleased  to 
call  it,  is  a  sin,  because  forsooth,  "  he  would  get  rny  mo- 
ney without  an  equivalent."  Now  I  think  he  suspected 
the  contrary.  But  I  did  not  propose  betting.  His  ca- 
lumny had  taken  mc  by  surprise  ;  but  was  it  not  fortunate, 
almost  providential,  that  I  had  at  hand  a  direct  refutation, 
for  if  his  charge  had  gone  abroad  uncontradicted,  the  ig- 
norant or  bigotted  would  have  taken  it  on  his  authority, 
and  quoted  it  with  as  much  assurance  as  he  did  on  that  of 
the  British  Critic — and  for  the  same  unholy  purpose.  He 
took  me  I  say  at  an  unfair  moment,  and  then  it  was  I 
stated  that  if  the  gentleman  could  prove  his  charge — 
there  were  gentlemen  here  who  had  confidence  in  my 
word,  and  I  said  I  would  pledge  myself  to  forfeit  $1000 
to  be  distributed  in  charities  to  the  poor,  as  this  council 
might  direct,  provided  he  would  agree  to  the  same  for- 
feiture, if  he  failed  to  prove  it.    This  is  not  betting. 

He  says  that  his  church  has  taught  him  the  sinfulness 
of  betting.  But  this  did  not  deserve  that  name.  It  was  only 
an  ordeal  to  test  his  confidence  in  the  veracity  of  the 
slander  contained  in  the  Methodist  Remonstrance.  I  may 
not  indeed,  have  the  same  scruples  about  what  he  culls 
gambling,  that  he  has  ;  but  I  do  remember,  what  he  seems 
to  have  forgotten,  that  there  is  a  precept  of  the  Decalogue 
— a  commandment  of  the  living  God,  which  says  :  Thou 
shalt  not  bear  false  witness  against  thy  neighbour." 

I  now  pass  to  another  portion  of  this  gentleman's  re- 
marks. He  contends  that  it  is  impossible  to  furnish  read- 
ing lessons  from  history  for  the  last  ten  centuries,  without 
producing  what  must  be  offensive  to  Catholics.  The  his- 
tory of  Catholics  is  so  black,  that  the  Public  Schools  could 
not,  in  his  view,  find  a  solitary  bright  page  to  refresh  the 
eye  of  the  Catholic  children.  This  is  set  forth  in  the  He- 
monstrance  of  the  Methodist  Episcopal  Church,  and  this 


the  Rev.  gentloman  undertook  to  support  in  his  speech. 

He  said  that  history  must  not  be  falsified  for  our  accom- 
modation. That  the  black  and  insulting  passages  against 
us  and  our  religion,  placed  in  the  hands  of  our  childu  n  i<t 
the  Public  Schools,  were  not  to  be  charged  as  a  delect  in 
the  system — inasmuch  as  the  Trustees  could  find  worse, 
but  would  be  obliged  to  falsity  history  itself  to  find  better. 
From  this  defence  you  can  judge  what  confidence  Catho- 
lics can  place  in  :his  Society,  or  in  the  schools  under  their 
charge. 

I  contended  that  there  existed  portions  of  history  emi- 
nently honourable  to  Catholics.  But,  says  he,  "history 
is  philosophy,  teaching  by  example — the  good  and  the  bad 
must  be  taken  together."  Then  how  does  it  happen  that 
the  bad  alone  is  presented  in  the  Public  Schools  ?  Be- 
sides, if  all  the  good  and  all  the  bad  which  history  ascribes 
to  Catholics  must  be  presented,  it  would  make  a  library 
rather  large  for  a  class-book  in  the  Public  Schools. 
Hence  the  necessity  of  a  selection  ;  and  how  is  it,  that  in 
the  selcctien  the  bad  is  brought  out,  and  the  good  passed 
over  in  silence  as  if  it  did  not  exist?  Why  is  the  burning 
of  Huss  selected  ?  Why  the  burning  of  Cranmer?  Why 
are  our  children  taught  in  the  face  of  all  sense  and  d(  cen- 
cy,  that  Martin  Luther  did  more  for  learning,  th=m  any 
other  man  "  since  the  days  of  the  Apostles!"  Why  is 
"  Phelim  Mashee  "  represented  as  "  sealing  his  soul  with 
a  wafer," — in  contempt  to  the  holiest  mystery,  known  to 
Catholics,  the  Sacred  Eucharist  ?  Why  are  intemperance 
and  vice  set  forth  as  the  necessary  and  natural  effects  of 
the  Catholic  Religion?  All  this  put  in  the  hands  of  Ca- 
tholic children,  by  this  society,  claiming  to  deserve  the 
confidence  of  Catholic,  parents  ! 

Now  the  Methodist  gentleman  says  that  all  this  is  right 
— that  the  Trustees  could  not  possibly  within  the  last  ten 
centuries,  find  history  which  would  not  be  offensive  to  Ca- 
tholics— and  that  to  make  it  otherwise,  it  must  be  falsified. 
Now,  Sir,  I  should  like  to  know,  whether  it  can  be  expect- 
ed that  we  should  have  any  confidence  in  schools,  for  the 
support  of  which  we  are  taxed,  in  which  our  religious 
feelings  are  insulted,  our  children  perverted,  and  whose 
advocates  tell  us  gravely  that  we  ought  to  be  satisfied,  that 
things  cannot  be  otherwise,  unless  history  is  to  be  falsi- 
fied lor  our  convenience  !  To  this  we  never  shall  con- 
sent. Religious  intolerance  has  done  much  to  degrade 
us,  and  its  most  dangeious  instrument  was  depriving  us 
of  education. 

The  gentleman  (Dr.  Bond)  has  corrected  some  of  my 
remarks  of  last  evening,  on  the  Methodist  Episcopal 
Church.  The  fact  is,  the  style  of  Remonstrance  present- 
ed  here,  as  emanating  from  that  church,  imposed  on  me 
the  necessity  of  alluding  to  the  history  and  principles  of 
that  denomination.  It  is  unpleasant  to  me  at  any  time,  to 
use  language  calculated  to  wound  the  feelings  of  any  sect 
or  class  of  my  fellow  citizens.  But  they  who  offer  the 
unprovoked  insult,  must  not  complain  of  the  retoit.  I 
stated  that  the  Methodists  in  England  had  never  done  a  so- 
litary act  to  aid  in  the  spread  of  civil  and  religious  liberty 
in  that  country  ;  that  whilst  the  Catholics  aided  the  Dis- 
senters in  obtaining  the  repeal  of  the  Test  and  Corpora- 
tion Acts,  the  Methodists  never  contributed  to  that  mea- 
sure, by  so  much  as  one  petition  in  its  favour.  But  it 
appears  I  fell  into  a  mistake,  which  the  gentleman  cor- 
rected with  great  precision  and  gravity.  The  "  Metho- 
dist Society,"  in  England,  he  tells  us,  is  something  quite 
different  from  the  "  Methodist  Episcopal  Church,"  in  the 


51 


United  Stfdeg.  The  former  consider  themselves  only  as  a 
society  in  the  Established  Church,  just  as  the  religious 
orders,  the  Dominicans,  Jesuits,  &c,  are  in  the  Catholic 
communion.  Certainly  it  is  new  to  me  to  learn  that  the 
Methodists  and  the  church  of  England  are  in  such  close 
and  affectionate  spiritual  relationship.  For  although  the 
Methodists  considerthemselves  a  society  within  the  pale  of 
the  Establishment,  the  members  of  the  Established  church 
are  quite  of  a  different  opinion,  since  it  was  only  the  other 
day  that  I  read  of  h  Presbyter  of  that  church  having  been 
suspended  by  his  Bishop,  for  having  preached  in  a  Method- 
dist  Meeting-house  !  So  that  the  affection  of  the  Method- 
ists for  the  Church  of  England,  does  not  appear  to  be  very 
cordially  reciprocated. 

This  gentleman  tells  us  that  the  Methodists  who  are  only  a 
'Society"m  England  are  an  ''Episcopal  church  in  America.'' 
¥es,  sir,  Mr.  Wesley,  who  was  himself  but  a  Priest,  actually 
consecrated  a  Bishop  for  the  United  States !  And  hence  the 
Methodist  Episcopal  Church — a  new  order  of  Episcopacy, 
deriving  their  authority  and  character  from  Mr.  John  VVes- 
ley,  a  mere  Priest.  But  with  or  without  Bishops,  their 
whole  history  proves  how  much  they  imbibed  of  the  intoler- 
ance of  the  established  Church  of  England,  to  which  he  tells 
us  they  are  so  intimately  allied  in  that  country,  but  which  at 
all  times  spurns  the  connexion.  This  same  John  Wesley 
held  and  wrote  that  no  government  ought  to  grant  toleration 
to  Catholics — because,  forsooth,  either  from  ignorance  of 
Catholic  doctrines  or  bigotry  against  them,  he  was  pleased 
to  believe  and  assert  falsely  that  they  held  it  lawful  to  mur- 
der heretics.  When  the  government  of  Great  Britain  was 
about  to  mitigate  the  code  of  penal  laws  and  persecution 
against  the  Catholics  in  1780,  who  was  more  fervent  and 
fanatical  in  opposition  to  the  exercise  of  mercy  than  John 
Wesley  ?  The  great  object  of  the  Protestant  Association, 
headed  by  Lord  George  Gordon,  was  to  oppose  the  least 
mitigation  of  severity.  Who  was  more  active  in  the  intel- 
lectual operations  of  that  society  than  Mr.  John  Wesley  ? 
Under  the  leadership  of  Lord  George  Gordon  they  raised  a 
rebellion  in  that  year,  and  when  the  mob  had  plundered,  de. 
stroyed,  and  burnt  the  houses  and  churchesof  the  Catholics, 
spread  consternation  throughout  the  city  of  London, and  caus- 
ed  human  blood  to  flow  in  torrents,  we  have  this  same  Wesley 
with  sanctimonious  gravity  charging  it  all  on  the  Catholics 
— the  victims  of  its  fury — and  contending  that  it  was  a 
"Popish  plot."  His  services  in  that  Association  had  been 
acknowledged  by  a  unanimous  vote  of  thanks,  dated  Febru- 
ary, 17th  of  that  very  year.  This  was  in  17S0 — when  the 
mighty  events  which  had  occurred  in  this  country  taught  the 
British  government  the  expediency  of  relaxing  the  penal 
laws  against  so  iarge  a  portion  of  her  subjects  in  England 
and  Ireland.  The  rebound  of  those  events  had  been  felt 
throughout  tiie  world.  They  were  the  events  created  and 
accomplished  by  the  great  fathers  of  this  Republic,  then 
struggling  into  existence  ;  and  whilst  Catholics  and  Protes- 
tants fought  bravely  side  by  side  in  the  ranks  of  indepen- 
dence,— while  a  Catholic  Carroll  was  signing  its  charter — 
and  another  Carroll,  a  Priest,  and  (tell  it  not  in  Gath)  a  Je- 
suit, was  employed  on  an  embassy  to  render  the  population 
of  Canada  friendly,  or  at  least  not  hostile  to  our  struggle--- 
whilst  a  Catholic  Commodore  Barry  was  doing  the  office  of 
a  founder  and  father  to  our  young  and  gallant  Navy— what 
■was  John  Wesley  doing?  He  was  creeping  to  the  British 
throne  to  lay  at  the  feet  of  His  Majesty's  government  the  offer 
to  raise  a  regiment  and  put  them  at  the  disposal  of  the  crown, 
expiessly  to  put  down  what  lie  called  the  "American  Re- 


Dellion,"---to  crush  the  rising  liberties  of  your  infant  country ! 

Now,  sir,  I  think  I  was  authorized  to  state  that  the  Me- 
■thodists  have  done  as  little  for  the  spre  >d  of  human  liberty, 
the  rights  and  equality  of  mankind,  as  any  other  denomina- 
tion— no  maltur  how  old  or  how  young.  If  they  have  not 
done  extensive  mischief,  of  which  the  gentleman  boasts,  it  is 
to  be  remembered  that  they  never  possessed  supreme  civil 
power,  and  that  in  the  order  of  time  they  have  been  too  insig- 
nificant, andare  still  too  juvenile  tohavedone  extensive  evil. 
If  they  have  done  private  good  as  the  gentleman  contends, 
I  confess  it  reminds  me  of  Stephen  Girard's  charity.  He 
was  exceedingly  rich  ;  and  because  he  was  rich,  people 
thought  he  was  very  wise.  And  inasmuch  as  he  despised 
all  external  show  of  religion,  it  was  inferred  he  was  very 
charitable  to  the  poor,  without  however  making  a  display  of 
it.  If  it  was  so,  no  man  ever  practiced  better  the  counsel 
of  the  Gospel  "  not  to  let  the  left  hand  know  what  the  right 
hand  doeth"  in  the  matter.  It  was  so  private  that  no  one 
ever  could  find  it  out.  So  it  is  with  the  Methodist  Church 
with  regard  to  any  public  benefit  ever  conferred  on  mankind 
— we  have  yet  to  hear  of  it. 

I  will  now  satisfy  the  gentleman  on  another  subject  which 
seems  to  trouble  him  and  on  which  he  "should  like  to  know." 
And  as  other  gentlemen  have  alluded  to  it,  I  hope  the  same 
explanation  will  suffice  in  reply  to  them  all. 

Before  the  British  government  released  the  Catholics  from 
the  penalties  under  which  they  labored,  among  which  not 
the  least  was  the  exclusion  of  the  schoolmaster,  they  called 
upon  them  to  disavow  principles  which  they  knew  Catholics 
did  not  entertain.  But  in  order  to  reconcile  the  prejudices 
of  the  English  people,  lhey  had  an  investigation  of  those 
imputed  principles  before  the  houses  of  Parliament— they 
called  upon  some  distinguished  Catholic  citizens  and  ques- 
tioned them  on  several  points  such  as  those  the  gentleman 
has  so  frequently  referred  to,  among  which  was  the  spiritual 
authority  of  the  Pope.  From  the  testimony  which  they  took 
I  now  quote.  It  is  part  of  the  testimony  of  Dr.  Doyle, 
Bishop  ofKildare — but  other  Bishops  and  public  men  were 
all  examined  on  the  same  subject. 

Question.  "Accoiding  to  the  princ  pies  which  govern 
the  Roman  Catholic  Church  in  Ireland,  has  the  Pope  any 
authority  to  issue  commands,  ordinances,  or  injunctions, 
general  or  special,  without  the  consent  of  the  King?" 

Answer.    "  He  has." 

Question.  "If  he  should  issue  such  orders, are  the  sub- 
jects  of  His  Majesty,  particularly  the  clergy,  bound  to  obey 
them  ?" 

Answer.  "  The  orders  that  he  has  a  right  to  issue  must 
regard  things  that  are  of  a  spiritual  nature ;  and  when  his 
commands  regard  such  things  the  clergy  are  bound  to  obey 
them  ;  but  were  he  to  issue  commands  regarding  things  not 
spiritual,  the  clergy  are  not  in  anywise  bound  to  obey  them." 

Consequently  if  His  Holiness,  as  the  gentleman,  Mr. 
Ketchum,  said,  should  forbid  the  reading  of  the  Declaration 
of  Independence,  it  would  not  be  of  any  authority. 

Mr.  Ketchum.     Does  the  book  say  so? 

Bishop  Hughes.  I  am  authority  myself  in  matters  of 
my  religion.  Surely,  sir,  I  am  not  here  to  betray  it,  and 
1  am  astonished  that  the  gentleman  is  not  better  acquainted 
with  history  on  the  matter.  He  amused  us  a  little  while 
ago  with  the  idea  of  what  terrible  consequences  might  en- 
sue if  the  Pope,  a  "  foreign  potentate,"  should  forbid  us  to 
read  the  Declaration  of  Independence — or  forbid  the  read- 
ing  of  the  Bible  in  our  Common  Schools.  He  even  apo- 
logized for  his  alarm  with  singular  simplicity — "  ho  meant 


52 


no  reflection.  This  matter  had  come  out  in  evidence 
here."  It  was  then,  sir,  I  wondered  at  his  not  having 
read  history,  or  having  read  it  to  so  little  advantage. 

Did  he  not  know,  that  long  before  the  Declaration  of 
Independence,  Venice  rose  out  of  the  sea,  a  Catholic  state, 
with  all  her  republican  glory  round  about  her  f  And 
when  the  Pope,  in  his  capacity  of  "  foreign  potentate," 
attempted  to  invade  her  temporal  rights,  her  Catholic  sons 
did  what  they  ought  to  have  done,  they  unsheathed  their 
swords  and  routed  his  troops.  Did  they  thereby  forfeit 
their  allegiance  to  him  as  spiritual  head  of  the  church  on 
earth  ?  Not  an  iota  of  it.  To  a  man  who  reads  history 
and  understands  it,  this  fact  alone  points  out  the  difference, 
in  the  creed  of  Catholics,  between  the  Pope  and  the  Poten- 
tate. The  Venitians  knew  that  the  Pope  in  his  spiritual 
capacity,  belongs  to  a  kingdom  which  is  not  of  this  world. 
And  the  allegiance  of  Catholics  to  him,  out  of  his  own 
small  dominions,  is  due  to  him  only  in  his  spiritual  capa. 
city.  Whatever  temporal  right  was  acquired  over  inde- 
pendent states  by  the  Popes  in  former  ages,  was  owing  to 
no  principle  of  Catholic  doctrine,  but  purely  to  the  disor- 
ders uf  the  times  and  the  pusillanimity  of  weak  ruL-rs,  who  in 
order  to  secure  the  Pope's  protection,  made  themselves  his 
vassals.  The  Popes  in  such  circumstances  would  have  bet  n 
mere  or  less  than  men,  had  they  refused  to  embrace  these 
opportunities  of  aggrandizement  so  placed  within  their 
reach,  and  often  pressed  upon  them.  Now  every  Cath- 
olic  is  familiar  with  this  view  of  the  subjeel,  and  yet, 
except  a  few  of  larger  minds  and  better  education,  it 
lias  hardly  penetrated  the  density  of  protestant  prejudice. 
Hence  you  hear  them  giving  the  most  absurd  construction  to 
the  duties  of  Catholics  between  the  supposed  conflicting 
claims  of  their  country,  and  the  imputed  principles  of 
their  religion.  Permit  me  here  to  call  your  attention  to 
the  true  and  beautiful  exposition  of  the  case  as  set  forth 
in  the  language  of  a  gentleman,  who,  though  a  Catho- 
lie,  is  acknowledged  to  be  a  man  of  as  high  honor,  as 
lofty  and  patriotic  principles,  and  as  unblemished  a  cha- 
ractei,  as  any  man  the  nation  can  boast  of;  I  mean 
Judge  Gaston  of  North  Carolina.  The  state  has  no 
son  of  whom  she  is,  or  ought  be,  prouder.  And  yet 
up  till  within  a  few  years,  the  latvs  of  that  state  disqua- 
lified a  Catholic  from  holding  any,  even  the  office  of  a 
constable.  In  a  speech  made  by  Judge  Gaston  in  the 
Covention  for  revising  the  State  Constitution,  in  reference 
to  this  matter,  he  says . 

"  But  it  has  been  objected,  lhatthe  Catholic  religion  is  unfavora- 
ble lo  freedom,  nay  even  incompatible  with  republican  institutions, 
ingenious  speculations  on  such  matters  are  worth  little,  and  prove 
still  less.  Let  me  ask  who  obtained  the  great  charier  of  English 
freedom,  but  the  Catholic  prelates,  and  barons  at  Runnemede  ?— 
The  oldest — the  purest  democracy  on  earth,  is  the  little  Catholic 
republic  of  St.  Mavino,  not  a  day's  journey  from  Rome.  It  has  ex- 
isted now  for  fourteeti  hundred  years,  and  is  sojealcus  of  arbitraiy 
power,  that  the  executive  authority  is  divided  between  two  Govern- 
ors, who  are  elected  every  three  months.  Was  William  Tell,  the 
founder  of  Swiss  liberty,  a  royalist  1  Are  the  Catholics  of  the 
Swiss  cantons  in  love  with  tyranny's  Are  the  Irish  Catholics 
friends  to  passive  obedience  and  non-resistance  1  Was  Lafayette, 
Pulaski,  or  Kosciusko,  a  foe  to  civ  il  treedom  ?  Was  Charles  Car 
roll,  of  Carrollton,  unwilling  to  jeopard  fortune  in  the  cause  of  lib- 
erty ?  Let  me  give  you  however,  the  testimony  of  George  Wash- 
ington. On  his  accession  to  the  Presidency,  he  was  addressed  by 
the  American  Catholics,  who  adverting  to  the  restrictions  on  their 
worship  then  existing  in  some  of  the  States,  expressed  themselves 
thus — "The  prospect  of  national  prosperity  is  peculiarly  pleasing 
to  us  on  another  account;  because  while  our  country  preserves  her 
freedom  and  independence  we  shall  have  well  lounded  title  lo 
claim  from  her  justice  the  equal  rights  of  citizenship  as  the  price 
of  our  blood  spilt  under  your  eye,  and  of  our  common  exeriions 


for  her  defence  under  your  auspicious  conduct.' '   This  great  man, 

who  was  utterly  incapable  of  flatiery  and  deceit,  utiers  in  aswer  the 
following  sentiments,  which  1  give  in  h  a  own  words:  "As  man- 
kind become  moie  liberal,  they  will  be  more  apt  to  allow  that  all 
those  who  conduct  themselves  as  worthy  members  of  the  commu- 
nity are  equally  entitled  lo  the  protection  of  civil  government.  I 
hope  ever  to  see  America  among  the  foremost  nations  in  examples 
of  justice  and  liberality  ;  and  I  presume  that  your  fellow-citizens 
will  never  forget  the  patriotic  part  which  y<  u  look  in  the  accom- 
plishment of  their  revolution, and  the  establishment  ol  their  govern- 
ment, or  the  important  assistance  which  they  received  from  a  na- 
tion in  which  the  Roman  Catholic  faith  is  professed."  By  the  by, 
sir,  I  would  pause  for  a  moment  tocall  the  attention  of  this  commit- 
tee to  some  of  the  names  subscribed  lo  ibis  address.  Among  (hem 
are  those  cf  Jo  n  Carroll,  ihe  first  Roman  Catholic  bishop  of  the 
United  Stales,  Charles  Carroll,  of  Carrollton,  and  Thomas  Fitz- 
simroons;  for  ihe  characters  of  these  distinguished  men,  if  they 
needed  vouchers,  I  would  confidently  call  on  ihe  venerable  Pren- 
dent  of  this  Convention.  Bishop  Carroll  was  one  of  the  best  men 
and  most  humble  and  devout  ol'Chrisiians.  I  shall  never  forget  a 
tribute  to  his  memory  paid  by  ihe  good  and  venerable  Protestant 
Bishop  White,  when  contrasting  the  pi«iy  with  which  the  Christian 
Carroll  mei  death,  with  the  cold  trilling  that  characterized  the  last 
moments  of  the  sceptical  David  Hume.  I  know  not  whether  the 
iribuie  was  more  honorable  to  ihe  piety  of  the  dead,  or  to  the  chari- 
ly of  the  living  prelate.  Charles  Carroll  of  Carrol. ion,  ihe  last  s.ur- 
vivcr  of  the  signers  of  American  Independence— at  whose  death 
both  houses  of  the  legislature  of  North  Carolina  unanimously  testi- 
fied their  sorrow,  as  at  a  national  bereavement !  Thomas  Kiizsim- 
mons,  one  of  the  illustrious  convention  that  framed  the  Constitution 
of  the  United  Stales,  and  for  several  years  the  Representative  in 
Congress  from  the  city  of  Philadelphia.  Were  lhe.se,  and  such  a-, 
these,  foes  to  freedom  and  unfit  for  republicanism  1  Would  it  be 
dangerous  to  permit  such  men  to  be  sheriffs  and  constables  in  the 
land?  Read  the  funeral  eulogium  of  Charles  Carroll,  delivered 
at  Rome  by  Bishop  England— one  of  the  greatest  ornaments  of 
the  American  Caiholic  Church — a  foreigner  indeed  t  y  birth,  but 
an  American  by  adoption, and  who  becoming  an  American,  solemn- 
ly abjured  all  allegiance  to  every  foreign  king,  prince,  and  potentate 
whatever  — that  eulogium  which  v/asso  much  carped  at  by  English 
royalists  and  English  tories— and  I  ihink  you  will  find  it  democrat- 
ic enough  to  suit  the  taste  and  find  an  echo  in  the  heart  of  ih  stern- 
est republican  amongst  us.  Catholics  are  of  all  countries,  ot  all 
governments,  ol  all  political  creeds.  In  all  ihey  are  taught  that  the 
kingdom  of  Christ  is  not  of  this  world — and  that  it  is  their  duty  to 
render  unto  Cae>er  the  things  that  are  Caesar's,  and  unto  God  the 
things  that  are  God's." 

I  shall  now  proceed  with  tha  testimony  of  the  Irish 
Bishops  in  order,  which  was  interrupted  by  the  gentleman's 

question. 

Here,  sir,  is  the  testimony  of  another  Bishop — Dr. 
Murray,  the  present  Archbishop  of  Dublin,  before  a 
Committee  of  the  British  Parliament. 

M  To  what  extent  and  in  what  manner,  does  a  Catholic 
profess  to  obey  the  Tope  ? — Solely  in  spiritual  milters,  or 
in  such  mixed  matters  as  came  under  his  government, 
such  as  marriage  for  instance,  which  we  hold  to  be  a  sa- 
crament as  well  as  a  civil  contract  ;  as  it  is  a  sacrament, 
it  is  a  spiritual  thing,  and  comes  under  the  jurisdiction  of 
the  Pope ;  of  course  he  has  authority  over  that  spiritual 
part  of  it ;  but  this  authority  does  not  affect  the  civil  rights 
of  the  individuals  contracting. 

"  Does  this  obedience  detract  from  what  is  due  by  a  Cath- 
olic to  the  state  under  which  he  lives? — Not  in  the  least ; 
the  powers  are  wholly  distinct. 

"  Does  it  justify  an  objection  that  is  made  to  Catholics, 
that  their  allegiance  is  divided  ?  Their  allegiance  in  civil 
matters  is  completely  undivided. 

"Is  the  duty  which  the  Catholic  owes  to  the  Pope,  and 
the  duty  which  he  owes  to  the  King,  really  and  substanti- 
ally distinct  ?    Wholly  distinct! 

"  How  far  is  the  claim,  that  some  Popes  have  set  up  to 
Temporal  Authority,  opposed  to  Scripture  and  Tradition  ? 
As  far  as  it  may  have  been  exercised  as  coming  from  a 
right  granted  to  him  by  God,  it  appears  to  me  to  be  con- 


f>3 


trary  to  scripture  and  tradition;  but  as  far  as  it  may  hiive 
bee;i  exercised  in  consequence  of  a  right  conferred  on 
him  by  the  different  Christian  powers,  who  looked  up  to 
him  at  one  lime,  as  the  great  parent  of  Christendom,  who 
appointed  him  as  the  arbitrator  of  their  concerns,  many  of 
whom  submitted  their  kingdoms  to  him,  and  laid  them  at 
his  feet,  consenting  to  receive  them  back  from  him  as  fiefs, 
the  case  is  different.  The  power  that  he  exercised  under 
that  authority,  of  course  passed  away,  when  those  temporal 
princes,  who  granted  it,  chose  to  withdraw  it.  His  spiritu- 
al power  does  not  allow  him  to  dethrone  kings,  or  to  ab- 
solve  their  subjects  from  the  allegiance  due  to  them  ;  and 
any  attempt  of  that  kind  I  would  consider  contrary  to 
scripture  and  tradition. 

"  Does  the  Pope  now  dispose  of  temporal  affairs  within  the 
kingdoms  of  any  of  the  princes  of  the  Continent?  Not 
that  I  am  aware  of;  I  am  sure  he  does  not. 

"  Do  the  Catholic  clergy  admit  that  all  the  bulls  of  the 
Pope  are  entitled  to  obedience  ?  They  are  entitled  to  a 
certain  degree  of  reverence.  If  not  contrary  to  our 
usages,  or  contrary  to  the  law  of  God,  of  course  they  are 
entitled  to  obedience,  as  coming  from  a  superior.  We  owe 
obedience  to  a  parent,  we  owe  obedience  to  the  King,  we 
owe  it  to  the  law  ;  but  if  a  parent,  the  King,  or  the  law, 
were  to  order  us  to  do  any  thing  that  is  wrong,  we  would 
deem  it  a  duty  to  say,  as  the  Apostles  did  on  another  oc. 
casion,  "  We  ought  to  obey  God  rather  than  men." 

"  Are  there  circumstances  under  which  the  Catholic  cler- 
gy would  not  obey  a  bull  of  the  Pope  ?    Most  certainly. 

"  What  is  the  true  meaning  of  the  following  words,  in  the 
creed  of  Pius  the  Fourth  :  "  I  promise  and  swear  true 
obedience  to  the  Roman  Bishop,  the  Successor  of  Saint 
Peter?"  Canonical  obedience,  in  the  manner  I  have  just 
described,  within  the  sphere  of  his  own  authority. 

"  What  do  the  principles  of  the  Catholic  religion  teach,  in 
respect  to  the  performance  of  civil  duties  ?  They  teach 
that  the  performance  of  civil  duties  is  a  conscientious  obli- 
gation which  the  law  of  God  imposes  on  us. 

•'Is the  divine  law  then  quite  clear,  as  to  the  allegiance 
due  by  subjects  to  their  prince  ?    Quite  clear. 

"  In  what  books  are  to  be  found  the  most  authentic  exposi- 
tion of  the  Faith  of  the  Catholic  church?  In  that  very 
creed  that  has  been  mentioned,  the  creed  of  Pius  the 
Fourth;  in  the  catechism  which  was  published  by  the  di- 
rection of  the  Council  of  Trent,  called  "  I  he  Roman  Cate- 
chism,"or  "  The  Catechism  of  the  Council  of  Trent;" 
"  An  Exposition  of  the  Catholic  Faith,  by  the  Bishop  of 
Meaux,  Bossuet;"  "Verron's  Rule  of  Faith;"  "Elolden's 
Analysis  of  Faith  "  and  several  others." 

Such  is  the  character  and  limitation  of  the  Pope's  au- 
thority, attested  under  oath,  by  Bishops  and  other  Catholic 
dignitaries  before  the  British  Parliament.  The  Catholics 
of  Great  Britain  and  Ireland  had  been  bowed  down  to  the 
earth,  by  penal  laws  and  persecution  during  300  years — 
with  nothing  between  them  and  the  enjoyment  of  all  their 
rights,  but  the  solemnity  of  an  oath.  If  their  conscience 
had  permitted  them  to  swear  what  they  did  not  believe,  they 
might  have  entered  on  their  political  rights  at  any  time,  and 
yet  as  martyrs  to  the  sacredness  of  conscience  they  re- 
sisted. 

I  have  now,  sir,  supplied  the  Reverend  gentleman,  who 
presented  the  remonstrance  from  the  Methodist  Episcopal 
church,  will  all  the  information  which  the  occasion  permits 
on  the  subjec  t  of  the  Pope's  authority.  But  there  is  a 
good  deal  more  to  which  if  time  allowed,  1  might  address 
myself.    He  became  very  logical  and  insisted  on  the  fact , 


that  the  doctrines  of  the  catholic  church  are  always  the  same, 
immutable.  He  says,  that  we  boast  of  this,  and  we  do  so, 
most  assuredly.  From  the  hour  when  they  were  revealed  and 
taught  by  Divine  authority  until  the  present, — from  the  ris- 
ing to  the  setting  of  the  sun,  the  faith  of  the  Catholic  be. 
liever,  and  the  doctrines  of  the  Catholic  church,  are  ever- 
lastingly and  universally  the  same.  But  then  he  concludes 
that  as  Catholics  in  some  instances  in  former  times,  perse- 
cuted,— so,  their  religion  being  always  the  same,  they  are 
still  bound  to  peisecute,  or  else  disavow  the  doctrine,  as 
Protestants  do.  Now,  sir,  we  do  disavow  and  despise  the 
doctrine  of  pesecution  in  ail  its  essence  and  forms.  But 
does  it  follow,  that  by  this,  we  disavow  any  doctrine  of  the 
Catholic  church  ?  By  no  means.  And  this  proves  that 
persecution  never  was  any  portion  of  the  Catholic  faith  ; 
for  if  it  had  been,  the  denial  of  it  would  cut  us  off  from  her 
communion.  The  church  we  believe,  by  the  promise  and 
supeiintendance  of  Ch'-ist  her  invisible  head  and  founder, 
to  be  infallible.  She  received  the  deposit  of  the  doctrines 
revealed  by  Our  Redeemer  and  his  Apostles  ;  her  office 
is  to  witness,  teach,  and  preserve  them.  These  alone  con- 
stitute the  religious  creed  and  doctrines  of  the  Catholic 
church  and  her  members.  We  believe  in  a  Trinity,  the 
Incarnation  of  Christ,  the  Redemption  by  his  death,  the 
divine  Institution  of  the  church.  These  and  whatever  the 
church  holds,  as  of  Divine  P-evelation,  are  the  doclrines  of 
our  Catholic  unity.  And  the  individual,  who  is  now  ad- 
dressing you,  and  the  Catholic  martyr,  who  is  at  this  mo- 
ment perhaps  bleeding  for  his  faith  in  China, — for  the 
church  has  her  martyrs  still ;  hold  and  believe  identically 
the  same  doctrines.  But  as  there  is  unity  in  faith,  so  there 
is,  in  the  church,  freedom  of  opinion  on  matters  which  are 
not  determined  by  any  specific  revelation.  Hence  we  are 
Republicans,  or  Monarchists,  according  Ij  individual  pre- 
ference, or  the  prevailing  genius  of  the  country,  we  belong 
to.  Hence,  when  the  Catholic  divines  at  Rheims  were 
appending  these  notes  to  their  edition  of  the  New  Testa- 
ment, the  Catholic  Bishops  of  Poland,  with  her  22  millions, 
were  opening  the  doors  of  the  Constitution  to  the  fugitive 
Protestants  of  Germany,  fleeing  from  the  intolerance  &  per- 
secution of  their  fellow  protestants.  The  one  act  is  as 
much  a  Catholic  doctrine  as  the  other,  because  in  both) 
cases  the  agents  acted,  not  by  the  authority  of  the  church, 
but  in  the  exercise  of  that  individual  judgment  for  which 
their  account  stands  to  God. 

But  1  must  be  brief.  I  cannot  follow  so  many  learned 
speakers  through  so  much  matter  that  is  foreign  to  the  sub- 
ject ;  for  I  agree  with  the  medical  gentleman,  who  said 
that  neither  the  Catholic  nor  the  Protestant  religion  was 
on  trial  here,  it  is  not  religious  creeds  thai  are  to  be  tesied 
by  this  council.  I  have  however,  given  this  explanation, 
and  I  trust  it  will  be  received,  though  it  may  have  been  te- 
dious, as  having  its  apology  in  the  remarks,  which  called  it 
forth.  I  only  wish  that  the  gentlen.a  l,  who  made  the  ob- 
servation  had  made  it  one  hour  and  a  half  sooner  ;  it  would 
have  saved  all  I  have  said  on  the  subject. 

But  this  speaker  also,  [Doctor  Reese]  lectured  me  for 
attending  certain  meetings,  as  if  it  were  a  descent  from 
my  dignity  to  find  myself  in  an  assembly  of  Freemen.  1 
did  not  consider  it  as  a  descent.  But  really  when  1  came 
here  in  the  simple  character  of  a  citizen,  I  did  not  think  I 
should  be  vested  with  my  official  lobes  for  the  purpose  of 
being  attacked.  Individuals  as  respectable  as  he  attended 
those  meetings,  and  I  consider  it  no  disgrace  to  have  bet-n 
there  or  here  ;  for  even  if  this  petition  came  not  from 
Catholics,  but  from  Methodists  or  any  other  Protestant  do- 


nomination,  whose  consciences  were  violated  by  tliis  sys- 
tem, I  should  be  found  in  their  midst  supporting  their  claim. 
Let  me  add  too,  that  I  would  rather  be  so  found,  than  for 
all  the  exchequer  of  the  Public  School  Society,  exchange 
places  with  gentlemen,  and  have  conscience  and  right  for 
my  opponents.  He  also  contended,  that  this  want  of  con- 
fidence  in  Catholics  was  the  result  of  my  appeals,  forget- 
ting that  the  state  of  things  which  is  now  brought  under  pub- 
lic notice  has  existed  for  years,  by  efforts  to  provide  a 
safe  education  for  our  children,  long  before  those  meetings 
were  called,  and  before  I  attended  them.  And  besides  I 
conceive  it  is  my  bounden  duty,  if  I  saw  principles  incul- 
cated which  will  sap  the  young  minds  of  our  children,  and 
I  have  no  doubt  this  honorable  board  will  say  it  is  my  duty, 
to  warn  them,  and  to  bring  them  within  the  pale  of  that  au- 
thority,  which  they  acknowledge.  I  wonder  if  Pre^byte- 
rian  gentlemen  would  seo  Catholic  books,  circulated 
amongst  their  childen,  and  not  warn  their  people;  against 
them?  I  wonder,  if  these  books  contained  reading  lessons 
about  Calvin  and  the  unhappy  burning  of  Servetus,  whether 
they  would  not  warn  their  people.  I  say,  if  they  believe  in 
their  religion,  they  would  be  in  the  discharge  of  their  duty. 
And  while  on  this  subject  it  occurs  to  me  at  (his  moment, 
tint  in  the  wide  range  of  observation  which  has  been  taken, 
reference  has  been  made  to  national  education  in  Ireland. 
And  we  are  told  that  after  books  had  been  agreed  upon, 
iha  Bishops  sent  the  question  to  Rome;  to  be  decided  by  the 
Pope.  What  question?  Can  they  tell  ?  for  I  am  sure  I 
cannot.  To  ".his  day,  I  have  never  understood  the  exact  na- 
uic  of  the  leforencc  to  the  Pope,  but  sir.this  is  no  extraordi. 
nary  thing.  Under  the  jealous. eye  of  the  British  Govern- 
ment,  even  in  the  darkest  hour  of  her  cruelty  to  Catholics, 
their  in'ercourse  with  Rome  was  not  interrupted.  But  while 
that  collection  and  compilation  of  scripture  lessons  was 
agreed  on  in  the  more  Catholic  parts  of  the  country  where 
the  population  is  divided  between  Protestants  and  Catholic, 
what  is  the  fact  ?  Why  in  another  part,  the  North  of  Ire- 
land, where  the  Presbyterians  are  more  numerous,  they 
had  conscientious  objections  to  this  selection  of  scripture, 
they  asserted  their  objections,  and  the  British  Government 
recognized  them  ;  and  thus  while  these  lessons,  by  agree. 
ment,were  in  general  use,an  exception  was  made  in  favor  of 
the  Presbyterians,who  had  objections  to  the  use  of  any  thing 
but  the  naked  word  of  God,  and  I  say,  honor  to  those  Presby- 
terians. The  Catholics  sent  in  no  remonstrance.  But  if  the 
rule  applied  to  their  case,  by  what  authority  will  your  hon- 
orable body  determine  that  it  shall  not  apply  to  ours  ?  Oh  !  I 
perceive.  The  gentleman  whose  remarks,  I  am  reviewing 
reasoned  on  un:il  he  arrived  at  the  conclusion,  that  there 
were  no  conscientious  grounds  for  our  objection  at  a  1- 
True,  we  said  we  had  ;  but  he  could  not  see  what  con- 
science had  to  do  with  a  matter  so  plain.  He  said,  here 
the  community  had  built  up  a  beautilul  system ;  it  was 
doing  good  ;  he  asked  shall  we  put  it  aside  in  deference  to 
pretended  scruples  ?   Now,  tell  me  when  the  despotism  of 

intolerance    ever    said    any   thing  else  than  this  ?  

Why  the  established  Church  of  England,  said  "we  are  do- 
ing  good,"  "  our  doors  are  open  to  all,"  the  minister  is  at 
the  desk,  and  the  bread  of  life  is  distributed  for  the  public 
good."  What  then  ?  What  business  have  these  unhappy 
parents  to  find  fault,  for  conscience  sake,  and  squeamish- 
ness?  Now  sir,  objections  can  exist  to  the  slightest  shade 
of  violation  to  our  conscience,  and  therefore,  I  did  not  ex- 
pect to  hear  this  argument  at  this  time  of  day.  But  the 
gentleman  speaks  of  my  addressing  the  public  meetings  to 


which  he  has  alluded,  as  though  my  speaking  there  had 

been  the  cause  instead  of  the  consequence  of  the  scruples 
of  our  people.  Then  it  was  I  joined  them  to  seek  u  reme. 
dy,  for  our  just  complaint,  but  if  in  your  wisdom  this  body 
shall  think  proper  to  deny  it  as  we  must  bear  it. 

He  contended  again  that  it  would  be  turning  the  pub- 
lic money'  to  private  uses.  Tliat  seems  to  me  to  have 
been  fully  answered.  He  also  contended  that  it  would  be 
the  giving  of  the  money  of  the  State  to  support  religion. 
That  I  have  disputed ;  for  if  so  I  shall  have  no  objection  to 
join  those  gentlemen  in  their  remonstrance.  But  at  the 
same  time  it  does  appear  strange  to  me  that  the  gentleman, 
who  pretends  to  have  read  the  scriptures  with  so  much  at- 
tention, should  not  hav  e  learned  that  principle — the  most  ge- 
neral, sir,  and  the  most  infallible  of  Christian  principles  for 
the  guidance  of  our  conduct — "  Do  unto  others  as  v» 

WOULD  THAT  OTHERS  SHOULD  DO  UNTO  YOU."     That  i* 

the  principle,;  and  is  it  not  strange  that  such  opposition 
should  be  made  to  us  when  i(  is  known  that  money  raised 
by  public  tax,  goes  to  the  support  of  literature  under  the  su- 
pervision of  the  Methodist  Episcopal  Church?  And 
why  do  not  Catholics  object  to  that?  Because  the  tax  does 
not  belong  to  any  particular  sect;  it  is  thrown  into  a  com- 
mon fund  and  applied  to  such  uses  as  the  legislature  in  its 
wisdom  thinks  proper.  Wc  sir,  however,  ask  for  our  own 
and  nothing  else.  But  if  you  say  that  we  shall  be  taxed  for 
a  system  which  is  so  organized  that  we  cannot  participate  in 
it  without  detriment  to  the  religious  rights  of  our  ch.ldren, 
then  I  say  that  injustice  is  done  even  to  our  civil  rights;  for 
taxation  is  the  basis  of  even  civil  rights.  And  I  was  not 
a  little  struck  in  the  course  of  the  argument,  that  some  gen- 
tleman should  refer  with  so  much  emphasis  as  to  a  circum- 
stance novel  and  unparalleled  even  in  social  lite — that  a 
certain  class  of  gentlemen  should  petition  for  what?  The 
privilege  of  being  taxed !  They  deemed  it  a  privilege  ;  and 
that  was  wonderful !  and  merit  was  ascribed  to  them  for  it. 
les,  sir,  but  did  it  go  to  the  extent  only  of  their  own  pock- 
ets? Or  did  it  not  reach  the  pockete  equally  of  those  who 
did  not  petition?  If  to  themselves  only,  it  was  all  fair, 
and  proper,  disinterested  and  patriotic:  but  great  emphasis 
was  laid  on  this  class  being  most  "intelligent,"  and  "weal- 
thy," and  "  respectable,"  nobility  almost,  as  though  a  question 
of  this  kind  was  intended  for  a  particular  class.  But  let 
me  tell  you  the  honest  man  who  occupies  only  a  bed  in  a 
garret,  is  also  a  taxpayer.  Why  give  him  a  vote  ?  Be- 
cause he  pays  tax  for  the  space  he  occupies.  If  he  occu- 
pies a  room  and  pays  the  tax,  his  rent  is  less — if  the  land- 
lord pays,  his  rent  is  so  much  more.  So,  if  he  occupies  a 
garret — or  if  he  boards,  it  goes  down  to  that,  for  the  person 
who  keeps  the  boarding  house  pays  the  rent;  if  that  tax  is 
paid  by  the  boarding  house  keeper  the  rent  is  so  much  less, 
than  if  the  tax  was  paid  by  the  landlord.  If  the  boarding 
house  keeper  pays  the  tax  he  charges  more  for  board.  So 
that  the  boarder  is  a  tax  payer,  and  it  is  so  understood  in  our 
broad  and  excellent  system  of  representation.  The  exclu- 
sive merit  of  this  tax,  then,  is  not  to  be  given  to  any  parti- 
cular class,  no  matter  how  wealthy ;  and  I  was  surprised 
that  so  much  emphasis  should  be  laid  on  it.  I  did  not  sup- 
pose that  the  interests  of  the  poor  were  to  be  sacrificed  to 
the  respectability  of  the  rich.  The  poor  pay  too,  and  it  is 
a  beautiful  and  admirable  thing  to  see  what  a  dignity  this 
confers  on  human  nature — what  an  interest  this  excites  in 
the  poor.  I  recollect  passing  along  a  street  some  time 
since,  and  I  observed  a  little  house,  almost  a  shed  or  hovel, 
some  fourteen  or  sixteen  feet  square,  which  was  too  small 


55 


to  be  divided  into  two  compartments.  It  had  but  one  win- 
dow, and  this  had  originally  had  lour  panes  of  glass,  but 
one  having  been  broken  it  was  darkened.  There  had  been 
some  political  party  triumph  ;  the  boys  in  the  streets  had 
their  drums  out  and  there  appeared  to  be  apopular  rejoic- 
ing, and  there  I  saw  three  lights  burning  in  the  window  of 
this  poor  habitation.  I  was  amused  to  see  that  a  man  liv- 
ing in  so  poor  a  hovel,  and  unable  to  buy  a  fourth  pane  ot 
glass  should  find  means  to  light  the  other  three.  But  on 
further  reflection  I  said  to  myself,  ''there  is  philosophy 
there."  What  other  nation  can  exhibit  such  a  spectacle  J 
This  poor  man  who  must  toil  till  the  day  he  goes  to  his 
grave,  participates  in  a  political  triumph.  His  bread  has 
to  be  earned  by  daily  toil,  nevertheless,  though  the  triumph 
perhaps  will  never  benefit  him,  he  exhibits  a  glorious  spec- 
tacle to  the  world.  He  is  a  man — he  feels  it  is  recognized. 
It  is  a  nation's  homage  offered  to  human  nature.  He  is  a 
man  and  a  citizen  ;  and  on  reflection  I  was  delighted  at 
a  spectacle  so  glorious  as  this. 

But  returning  to  the  subject,  they  say  all  religion  is  left  to 
voluntary  contribution.  Now  is  this  true  in  the  sense  in 
which  it  is  here  applied  ?  Are  not  chaplains  appointed  to  pub- 
lic institutions  which  are  supported  by  the  public  money  ? 
And  have  you  not  given  it  to  the  Protestant  Orphan  Assylum, 
and  the  half  orphan  assylum?  Have  you  not  given  it  to  the 
Catholic  Benevolent  Society  ?  And  do  you  suppose  the  Wes- 
leyan  Catechism  is  taught  there  1  Do  you  suppose  the  Ca- 
tholic Catechism  is  taught  in  the  Protestant  Asylums?  One 
gentleman  argued  that  you  had  not  power  to  do  this.  But 
if  you  have  doue  it,  does  not  that  prove  that  you  had  the 
power?  If  you  had  power  to  do  that  you  have  power  equal- 
ly to  do  this.  I  shall  go  further.  I  lind  in  the  Report  of 
the  Regents  of  the  University,  that  the  Genesee  Wesleyan 
Seminary — Theological  Seminary,  as  I  understand — has 
last  year  received  $1,395  56  of  the  public  money.  This 
is  not  exclusively  literary  as  I  understand  it — 

Dr.  Bangs.    Altogether  literary. 

Bishop  Hughes.  I  was  under  the  impression  that  it 
was  Theological,  and  that  religion  was  admitted.  But 
those  in  this  city  furnish  evidence  that  a  religious  profession 
does  not  disqualify. 

I  believe  now  sir,  I  have  gone  through  the  substance  at 
least,  if  not  through  every  particular,  of  what  has  been  said 
by  the  gentlemen  who  interpose  their  remonstrances  and 
their  arguments  in  opposition  to  our  rightful  claim.  I  will 
now  read  one  authority,  and  I  am  the  more  willing  because 
it  is  from  the  public  school  society  themselves.  It  is  from 
the  memorial  which  they  presented  to  the  Legislature  in  the 
Session  of  1823,  in  which  they  state,  page  7,  "  It  will  not 
be  denied" — recollect  I  do  not  quote  this  to  show  that  our 
petition  ought  to  be  granted;  but  that  whatever  opinion 
these  gentlemen  may  now  have  of  trie  unconstitutionality  of 
granting  this  claim,  they  saw  nothing  unconstitutional  in 
the  practice  then,  and  I  know  of  nothing  so  far  as  the  con- 
stitution is  concerned,  neither  of  the  state,  nor  of  the  United 
States — I  know  of  no  enactment  which  should  change  their 
opinion. 

"It  will  not  be  denied,  in  this  enlightened  age,  that  the 
education  of  the  poor  is  enjoined  by  our  holy  religion,  and 
is  therefore,  one  of  the  duties  of  a  Christian  Church.  Nor 
is  there  any  impropriety  in  committing  the  school  fund  to 
the  hands  of  a  religious  society,  so  long  as  they  are  confin- 
ed in  the  appropriation  of  it,  to  an  object  not  necessarily 
connected,  or  intermingled  with  the  other  concerns  of  the 
church,  as  for  instance  to  the  payment  ol"  teachers,  because 


the  state  is  sure  in  this  case,  that  the  benefits  of  the  fund, 
in  the  way  it  designed  to  confer  them,  will  be  reaped  by  the 
poor.  But  the  objection  to  the  section,  sought  to  be  repeal- 
ed is,  that  the  surplus  monies,  after  the  payment  of  teach- 
ers, is  vested  in  the  hands  of  the  trustees  of  a  religious  so- 
ciety, and  mingled  with  its  other  funds,  to  be  appiopiiated 
to  the  erection  of  buildings  under  the  control  of  the  trustees, 
which  buildings  may,  and  in  all  probability  will,  be  used  for 
other  purposes  than  school  houses." 

That  is  the  statement  of  the  Public  School  Society  itself ; 
and  throughout  this  document — while  the  gentlemen  here 
have  been  wielding  against  our  petition  the  influence  of  le- 
spectable  and  wealthy  classes — I  find  that  before  the  acquisi- 
tion of  their  monopoly,  they  advocated  the  claims  of  the 
poor  who  cannot  b uy  education — sometimes  scarcely  bread. 
This  is  the  class  to  whose  welfare  the  eye  of  the  enlighten- 
ed, the  patriotic,  and  the  benevolent  should  be  directed — 
this  is  the  class  that  essentially  requires  education.  Thus 
they  say,  "  The  school  fund  is  designed  for  a  civil  purpose, 
for  such  is  the  education  oj  the  poor." 

Again,  they  say  that  the  New  York  Free  School  (that 
was  their  own  Society)  has  "one  single  object,  the  educa- 
tion of  the  poor."  Again,  the  Board  of  Trustees  is  annu- 
ally chosen,  &c,  "for  the  education  oj  the  poor."  And 
yet  now  I  could  point  out  thousands  of  our  poor  who  are 
destitute  of  education,  and  who  have  no.  means  to  provide 
it.  We  do  what  we  can,  but  we  are  too  limited  in  means 
to  raise,  of  ourselves,  a  sufficient  fund  ;  we  have  laboured 
under  great  disadvantages;  we  have  taught  the  catechism  in 
our  schools  because  while  we  supported  them  we  had  the 
right  to  do  so  ;  but  if  you  put  them  on  the  (doting  of  the 
common  schools  we  shall  be  satisfied,  and  the  state  will  se- 
cure the  education  of  our  children  ;  you  will  secure  them 
an  education  on  the  basis  of  morality,  for  they  had  belter 
be  brought  up  under  the  morality  of  our  religion,  though 
gentlemen  object,  than  none  at  all.  They  say  the  objection 
to  the  present  schools  is  that  there  they  are  made  Protes- 
tants. No,  sir,  it  is  because  they  are  made  JYothingarians, 
for  we  cannot  tell  what  they  are.  I  have  now  concluded, 
and  if  I  have  been  obliged  to  trespass  long  upon  your  pa- 
tience, recollect  as  some  extenuation,  that  I  had  a  great 
deal  to  reply  to  in  the  arguments  of  gentlemen  which  were 
urged  to  overthrow  the  principles  of  our  petition,  Lut 
had  no  bearing  on  the  petition  at  all.  We  do  not  ask  for 
the  elevation  of  the  Catholics  over  others  ;  but  for  the  pro- 
tection to  which  all  are  entitled.  The  question  is  exceed- 
ingly plain,  and  simple.  If  it  has  orcan  be  shown  that  we 
are  claiming  this  money  for  sectarian  purposes,  then  I 
should  advise  you  to  withhold  it.  But  if  in  honesty,  and 
truth,  and  sincerity,  it  is  a  right  belonging  to  us  as  citizens, 
to  receive  our  pro  rata,  then  we  appeal  to  you  with  confi- 
dence. 

From  the  sentiments  expressed  here  on  behalf  of  the 
Public  School  Society,  you  can  judge  of  the  chance  that 
Catholic  children  have  in  those  schools,  to  have  their  reli- 
gious rights  respected.  It  will  be,  as  perhaps  it  has  been, 
considered  a  great  and  a  good  work  to  detach  them  from  a 
religion  which  is  supposed  "  to  teach  the  lawfulness  of  mur- 
dering heretics."  Infidelity  itself  will  be  considered  pre- 
ferable to  Catholicism  in  their  regard,  lor  one  Rev.  gentle- 
man has  told  you  that  if  there  was  no  alternative,  he  would 
embrace  the  doctrines  of  Voltaire,  rather  than  the  religion 
of  a  Chcverus  or  a  Fenclon.  If  the  Catholics  have  been 
obliged  to  keep  their  children  from  those  schools  in  time 
past,  you  may  imagine  what  effects  these  sentiments,  this 


animus  of  the  system  is  likely  to  have  on  their  minds  for 
the  time  to  come.  But  if  it  is  our  religious  right  to  have  a 
conscience  at  all,  do  not  take  pains  to  pervert  it,  for  we 
shall  not  be  better  citizens  afterwards.  Do  not  teach  us  to 
slight  the  admonitions  of  our  conscience.  Reverse  our 
case  and  make  it  your  own,  and  then  you  will  be  able  to 
judge.  Make  it  your  own  case,  and  suppose  your  children 
were  in  the  case  of  those  poor  children  for  whom  I  plead  ; 
then  suppose  what  your  feelings  would  be  if  the  blessings  of 
education  were  provided  bountifully  by  the  State,  and  you 
were  unable  to  participate  in  those  blessings,  unless  you 
were  willing  to  submit  that  your  conscience  should  be 
trenched  upon. 

Here  the  Right  Rev.  Prekt?  sat  d;wn  after  raving  spo- 
ken for  nearly  thre,  hours  and  a  half. 

Dk.  Bangs.  I  wish  simply  to  correct  an  error  into 
which  (he  Rev.  gentleman  has  fallen,  respecting  an  obser- 
vation I  made  as  to  a  matter  of  fact.  I  believe  he  under- 
stood me  to  say  that  it  was  my  opinion  the  legislature  ought 
to  take  the  children  of  Catholics  and  compell  them  to  at- 
tend the  schools.  If  so,  he  misunderstood  me.  I  meant 
to  say  that  those  children  that  do  not  go  to  any  schools 
ought  to  be  compelled  to  go  to  the  public  schools. 

A  brief  conversation  ensued  between  the  Right  Rev. 
Bishop  Hughes,  and  Dr.  Bond  in  explanation  of  the  charge 
made  against  John  Wesley  that  he  had  aided  or  excited 
Lord  George  Gordon's  mob. 

The  Right  Rev.  Bishop  Hughes.  Might  I  be  allow- 
ed to  read  the  passage  from  the  chapter  on  "the  character 
of  Christ"  by  the  Bishop  of  London,  to  which  reference  has 
been  had.    Speaking  of  Jesus  Christ  it  says: 

"  His  answers  to  the  many  insidious  questions  that  were 
put  to  him,  showed  uncommon  quickness  of  conception, 
soundness  of  judgment  and  presence  of  mind  ;  completely 
baffled  all  the  artifices  and  malice  of  his  enemies ;  and  ena- 
bled him  to  elude  all  the  snares  that  were  laid  for  him." 

Mr.  Ketchum  rose  and  said,  I  wish,  sir,  to  say  a  few 
words  in  explanation.  I  do  not  wish  to  continue  the  theo- 
logical discussion,  but  to  make  a  few  remarks  on  the  pre- 
cise issue  before  the  Board. 

The  Chairman — That  has,  I  apprehend,  been  very  fully 
debated. 

Mr.  Ketchum — I  desire  to  make  a  remark  in  reply  to 
the  gentleman  on  the  other  side,  in  reference  to  the  publi- 
cation of  the  Bishop  of  London.  But  first,  sir,  the  rever- 
end gentleman,  has  endeavored,  with  great  dexterity,  to 
place  this  case  upon  the  consciences  of  the  Catholic  Socie- 
ty. He  has  represented  the  decision  of  this  Board  against 
their  petition,  as  a  violation  of  the  rights  of  conscience. — 
He  well  knows  the  favorable  attitude  in  which  they  stand, 
who  appear  to  be  persecuted  for  conscience  sake.  Does 
the  reverend  gentleman  mean  to  say  here,  he  has  consci- 
entious scruples  against  these  schools  as  public  institutions? 
Does  he  mean  to  affirm  here,  that  they  have  not  performed 
all  they  promised — :namely,  to  give  a  good,  secular  educa- 
tion to  the  poor  ?  No,  that  is  not  affirmed.  Whatever  he 
may  have  stated,  and  whatever  he  may  have  contradicted, 
throughout  the  length  of  his  address,  he  made  no  such  de- 
claration. But  the  Roman  Catholics  have  conscientious 
scruples — tney  cannot  send  their  children  to  these  schools 
without  sacrificing  their  right  of  conscience!  Now  the 
"Friends"  cannot  send  their  children  to  these  schools,  be- 
cause they  believe,  in  their  consciences,  that  they  ought  to 
educate  their  own  children ;  but  can  the  Friends  say  they 
pie  opposed,  upon  conscientious  grounds,  to  these  schools? 


They  are  established  by  a  public  act  of  the  State,  for  a  pub- 
lic purpose,  and  they  ha ve accomplished  their  purpose — they 
have  furnished  all  the  education  they  promised.  But  now 
the  reverend  gentleman  says,  his  conscience,  and  the  <  <>u- 
sciences  of  the  Roman  Catholic  community  are  violated, 

because  they  cannot  send  their  children  to  these  schools.  

Do  th  y  mean  to  say  they  have  conscientious  scruples 
against  paying  their  portion  of  the  tax  for  the  support  of 
these  schools  ?  It  might  well  be  that  some  denominations 
of  Christians,  have  conscientious  scruples  against  sending 
their  poor  to  be  taken  care  of  at  the  alms-house  ;  but  would 
they  have  the  right  to  say  that  they  would  not  therefore  be 
taxed  for  the  support  of  the  poor?  The  conscientious  scru- 
ple here  is  not  against  paying  the  tax,  but  against  sending 
their  children  to  these  schools:  now,  who  compels  them  1 
Dobs  the  State  interfere  and  say  they  shall  send  their  chil- 
dren to  these  schools?  The  State  says  that  they,  in  com- 
mon with  others,  shall  pay  the  tax  to  support  these  institu- 
tions of  learning:  have  they  alleged  that  their  consciences 
are  violated  by  paying  this  tax?  Can  they  say  so?  No. 
Wherein  then  consists  this  pressure  on  their  consciences? 

Now,  Mr.  President,  allow  me  to  take  another  view  of 
this  conscientious  objection.  If  I  am  taxed  to  support  the 
religion  of  the  Roman  Catholics,  my  conscience  is  violat- 
ed, because  I  am  compelled  to  pay  a  tax  to  suppoit  that, 
which  I  believe  ought  not  to  be  supported.  If  you  establish 
these  sectarian  schools  through  this  community,  and  make 
Protestants  pay  for  Catholic  schools,  then  indeed  you  in- 
fringe the  right  of  conscience,  because  you  compel  them  to 
do  that  which  is  a  violation  of  their  consciences..  But  we 
do  not  compel  them  to  attend  these  schools.  We  receive 
this  public  bounty,  and  we  come  here  and  account  for 
the  manner  in  which  we  use  it.  The  gentleman  does  not 
object  to  this.  He  does  not  object  to  our  doing  good  to 
the  children  that  do  come.  That  is  not  the  objection  ;  but 
he  objects  that  he  cannot  send  his  children.  He  pays  a  tax 
for  a  necessary  public  purpose — admitted  to  be  necessary 
— but  because  he  cannot  come  in  and  participate,  he  in- 
sists that  this  public  fund  shall  be  taken  by  the  Roman  Ca- 
tholics, by  the  Methodists,  by  any  and  every  other  denomi- 
nation, to  support  their  religion.  Grant  this,  and  then  in- 
deed you  will  infringe  the  right  of  conscience.  I  do  not 
mean  that  the  reverend  gentleman  shall  have  the  advantage 
here  of  standing  on  this  right  of  conscience.  The  con- 
sciences of  thousands  and  tens  of  thousands  of  this  com- 
munity will  be  violated,  if  they  are  to  be  compelled  to  pay 
a  tax  to  the  public  treasury,  and  from  thence  to  make  reli- 
gionists of  a  description  that  they  oppose.  I  want  this 
matter  to  be  set  right,  not  only  in  the  estimation  of  this 
Board,  but  of  the  public.  I  want  them  to  see  what  this  op- 
pression of  conscience  is.  If  it  is  any  where  it  is  on  those 
who  pay  the  tax  of  which  they  do  not  in  their  conscience 
approve ;  the  pressure  is  not  on  the  man  that  cannot  send 
his  children  to  participate  in  the  fund.  I  cannot  send  my 
children  to  these  schools.  There  are  obstacles  in  the  way 
as  formidable  as  the  gentleman's  conscience.  There  are 
obstacles  perhaps  with  tens  of  thousands  w  ho  pay  the  tax, 
but  do  not  participate,  and  who  cannot  participate,  because 
this  obstacle  exists.  But  have  they  the  right  to  say  they 
will  withhold  their  tax?  Would  the  State  listen  to  such  an 
objection  ?  No ;  the  State  has  established  these  public  in- 
stitutions for  a  necessary  public  purpose;  every  man  must 
be  taxed  for  their  support;  and  if  he  does  not  avail  himself 
of  them,  it  must  be  his  own  fault,  or  his  own  peculiarities 
perhaps.    And  now  what,  after  all,  is  the  objection  to  these 


57 


•chools?  Why  from  the  beginning  to  the  end  of  this 
three  hours  speech,  we  have  heard  that  these  books  con- 
tain passages  that  reflect  on  Catholics. 

The  Chairman  interposed. 

Mr.  Ketchum  continued.  This  is  new  matter  so  far  as 
I  am  concerned.  From  the  beginning  to  the  end  of  the 
gentleman's  speech,  we  have  heard  that  the  books  used  in 
these  public  schools,  contain  passages  that  reflect  on  Roman 
Catholics.  Now  I  submit  to  any  fair,  candid  man,  if  this 
is  the  time  of  day  to  bring  such  a  charge.  The  books  have 
been  placed  in  the  hands  of  the  reverend  gentleman ;  he 
has  been  asked  to  put  his  finger  on  any  objectionable  pas- 
sages, that  the  Board  might  pass  a  resolution  for  its  expur- 
gation ;  and  now  the  gentleman  comes  here  and  lays  great 
stress  on,  and  urges  as  an  argument  against  the  system  from 
the  beginning  to  the  end,  the  passages  which  the  trustees 
offered  to  expunge.  Sir,  when  the  trustees  offered  to  ex- 
punge the  passages,  in  all  fairness  and  candor,  they  were  to 
be  considered,  for  the  true  purposes  of  this  argument,  as  ex- 
punged. And  if  they  were  expunged,  what  would  become 
of  three-fourths  of  the  gentleman's  speech ;  all  indeed,  ex- 


cept the  theological  part?  And  now  tne  next  great  topic  is 
the  Bible. 

The  President. — The  gentleman  is  not  in  order. 

Mr.  Ketchum. — I'll  not  press  this  matter  if  it  is  disa- 
greeable.   I  know  the  night  is  far  advanced. 

The  Chairman. — I  must  say  the  gentleman  is  out  of 
order.  The  Board  agreed  that  the  parties  should  be  heard 
in  the  order  in  which  their  memorials  were  presented — that 
the  petitioners  should  have_  the  usual  right  to  reply:  they 
have  been  so  heard,  and  the  gentleman  is  therefore  out  of 
order  unless  the  Board  rescinds  its  resolution. 

An  Alderman  then  observed  that  there  were  some  gen- 
tlemen that  were  desirous  of  putting  in  written  legal  opi- 
nions, and  he  moved  that  they  have  permission  to  do  so  at 
the  next  meeting  of  the  Board. 

The  President  said  that  the  next  -meeting  of  the  board 
was  Monday  next,  and  therefore  no  order  of  the  board  was 
necessary  for  an  adjournment  on  the  subject. 

It  was  then  understood  that  legal  opinions  would  be  re- 
ceived at  the  next  meeting  of  the  Board. 

The  debate  was  here  brought  to  a  close,  and  the  coun- 
cil adjourned  a  few  minutes  before  twelve  o'clock. 


I 


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whose  intesests  it  has  been  designed  to  support.  Extensive 
communications  have  been  opened  with  Europe,  and  daily 
'  aid  weekly  papers,  a  id  literary  nnd  religious  periodicals  are 
ragjlarly  received  by  the  Free  naVs  Journal,  from  Paris 
London,  Edinburgh,  Liverpool,  Dublin,  and  all  the  princi- 
pal provincial  toyas  in  Ireland.  A  correspondent  has  been 
Its j wise  engaged  in  Irelanl — a  highly  respectable  and  in 
telligeat  Irish  gentle  oa  a  a  —  who  writes  regularly  every  week 
for  the  Journal,  and  gives  more  interesting  and  authentic 
information  than  can  always  be  gleaned  from  the  news 
papers. 

A  journal  posse^in^  the  ad/auLages  and  conducted  upon 
the  principles  above  staged,  cannot  fail  to  be  useful  and  in 
teresting  in  the  highest  degree;  and  the  proprietor,  who  is 
himself  a  Catholic  and  an  Irishman,  appeals  to  the  course 
pursued  by  the  Freeman's  J ou  nal  since  the  date  of  its  esta- 
bushmeni,  as  a  justification  of  all  that  has  been  said  above. 

It  is  printed  oa  a  large  double  sheet  with  new  type;  and 
it  is  in  co  at 3  nplatioa  to  enlarge  it  at  the  end  of  the  present 
year,  and  make  it  resemble  more  nearly  in  size  and  form 
the  London  weekly  periodicals. 

T  ie  favor  and  commendation  with  which  the  New  York 
Freeman's  Journal  has  besa  received,  has  been  a  source  of 
sincere  gratification  to  its  proprietor,  but  it  is  evident  that 
s  i)'a  an  establish  neat  can  only  be  successfully  supported 
by  a  wide  and  extendi.!  circulation.  The  proprietor  there- 
fore, appeals  to  his  fellow-citizens,  and  especially  to  those 
of  his  o  va  faith  and  country,  to  whoss  interests  it  is  espe- 
cially devote:!,  to  sustain  by  a  liberal  patronage,  a  journal 
which  iscalei'tted  not  only  to  p!eas3  and  to  instruct,  but 
to  viulicite  and  reoreseat  thsm  and  their  just  rights  with 
credit  and  respectability. 

.New  York  JVjve  n'jcr  25,  1840. 


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